mechanic Liability?

[honehe]

I have had a mobile mechanic working on my Chevy asto van. The job was a strip down and rebuild due to piston slap in one of the cylinders. He eventually got the engine out and used a couple of rachet tie downs that I had supplied to him because he didn't have any strops to raise the engine with. I questioned if the tie downs I had supplied would do the job and be strong enough to support the engine and he assured me that they would be. I gave him 4 strops but he only chose to use 2 of them. I was a bit worried so I asked him to add another one to the back of the engine to take the pressure off the two strops he was attempting to lift the engine with. He hoisted the engine and at first it held okay, however when he went to move the hoist out of the way, the strops broke and the engine crashed to the ground causing what he said was severe damage and that I would need a new engine. I asked about his business liability insurance, but he said because it wasn't his equipment he wasn't liable. I pointed out to him that he said the strops were strong enough to hold the engine. Where do I stand on this point? Is he liable to replace the damaged engine?

[Conniff]

Aren't businesses obliged to have publick liability insurance. I wouldn't let it go and would write recorded telling him that you intend getting the work completed elsewhere and will pass the bill to him for satisfaction.

[traffer]

Unfortunately, it seems that the mechanic did not have the right tools for the job and had to improvise. Tie downs are not lifting slings and should not be used for any lifting purposes. Luckily nobody was injured.

 

The mechanic should have refused the offer of tie downs and should have lifted the engine using proper lifting slings or lifting points.

 

Is a mobile mechanic qualified to give an opinion on the suitability of lifting equipment, I think not. Perhaps it could be argued that he was negligent in this respect.

 

The mechanic should have insurance and as he seems to know the limitations of his insurance should not have taken the risk he did.

[honehe]

Hi thanks for getting back to me. He says he has liability insurance but that it doesn't cover him for using equipment that doesn't belong to him. I insisted that he was responsible and he tried to blame me! He said that I supplied the tie downs, so it was my fault. I told him that as a trained mechanic he should have been aware that the straps were inadequate for the job and not used them and he should have waited until we could get proper straps to take the weight of the engine. He is still denying it's his fault, but even I (and I'm not a trained mechanic) was dubious about the strength of the straps and voiced my concerns to him. He's saying that he used them because I wanted the job done quickly, so it's my fault! I would love the job to be done quickly, but it's taken over 2 and half months already and he's only just got the engine out, only to break the thing!!! So far this has cost me over £1500 in labour charges, which for an engine replacement seems an awful lot, when in the beginning I asked him how much it would cost and he told me best part of a grand! Think this fight is going to go on for a while!

[heliosuk]

Reckon this is a 50/50 and unless he is given the chance to reply here i'd err on the side of caution. You offered 4 strops, he took two and you insisted on three. Get the gist?

 

Can you explain why you want the job done quickly yet it has taken over 2.5 months and cost £1500 in labour????

 

He could also argue that you were negligent as you also have a duty to exercise due care in relation to health and safety regs even though it's on your property.

 

Perhaps best to drop (pardon the pun) in this case as if he is savy it is quite possible to turn the books on you!

Edited May 7, 2010 by heliosuk
spelling mistake

[honehe]

hi thanks for the post. I don't believe that I am at fault here as he decided to use items "not fit for purpose", when he could have just refused them. Before I gave them to him to use I asked him if they were okay for lifting it and he assured me they were, if he was in any doubt he shouldn't have used them. And if I had known that they would have snapped then I wouldn't have let him use them, but he is the mechanic and I put my trust in his knowledge, however misplaced that may have been. He started the work over 2 and a half months ago and the reason it has taken so long is that he constantly neglects to turn up when arranged, citing all sorts of different excuses and I have wasted valuable time waiting around for him only to be let down, and having to constantly chase him to get on with the work. I have been more than fair with this guy and he has let me down time and time again. I needed the van done for the middle of this month because I had an overseas trip planned and he promised me from the start it would only take 2 weeks, then the date kept slipping further because of his non attendance on a number of occasions. So now my trip is ruined, my engine is ruined and I feel like I have just wasted all my money because I am now no further forward getting it repaired. The engine fell when he was moving the hoist, which i can only assume made the engine swing about and causing stress on the straps. I don't see that I am responsible for this, he is supposed to be knowledgeable about vehicles and such like. He was the one that said they would be okay not me, so therefore he should be liable in my opinion. the only reason another strap was added was because I was concerned about it, so If I had concerns, why didn't he? He was going to lift it with only 2!!!

[heliosuk]

The problem is that you offered them not knowing if they were fit or not, you did offer them and the fact you did means in the eyes of the ridculous health and safety laws you are responsible for them especially on your own premises so I understand. You also wanted the third which would imply you yourself were unsure!

 

More to the point though, as regards the time, how have you let this go on so long. I can understand youre being nice to him but one non turn up I would accept but two I'd be having serious thoughts about it.

 

I still can't understand why you have paid out £1500 so far. Can we have a breakdown of costs as many of us who post here would love to earn that amount for removing an engine!!!

 

Lets get the breakdown of the costs and move on from there. When we have this there is more info to make a judged decision.

[honehe]

Where I live in Cornwall, mobile mechanics are in short supply so I didn't really have much choice but to stick with it. I only went with this one because a friend of mine had an engine rebuild done by him, so I knew that he should have been capable of doing the job. He said that the job was more complicated than a standard vehicle, which I accept because the engine is hard to access. The money I have paid out is just pure labour charges of £30 per hour, plus £10 fuel on each visit. The van isn't being kept at my property, it's in a motor club in my place of work. Each time he let me down he promised me faithfully that he would get it done and turn up only to cancel on me again, but excuses ranged from personal emergencies to putting his back out. At times I was pleading with him to get it done, the minute I raised an objection he became argumentative and was saying things like, well I can't be everywhere at once can I? I tried to be reasonable and give him the benefit of the doubt and eventually I ran out of patience and told him it was unacceptable. His reliability was awful, but he always assured me that it would be ready in time for my holiday. But on several occasions I travelled to the motor club to meet him and he didn't show up, wasting my time and money! I see where you are going with the straps and if I have to take some responsibility for it, then so be it, but the fact remains that he ASSURED me that they were fine for the job and being the customer I accepted that he knew what he was talking about. The hoist had a chain for lifting, which he COULD have used and is obviously more suited to the task, but he wrapped this around the straps not the engine, he said he didn't want to damage the engine by using the chain on it (bit ironic really considering the circumstances) I don't know whether he took advantage because I am female, but while he was working on my vehicle he would receive angry calls from other customers and not seem to care that he was letting them down as well. I really need to know where I can go from here, I don't have an endless amount of money and the thought of having to pay for a new engine because of this really upsets me and on top of that, I have to find someone else to rebuild it and pay for that on top of the cost of a replacement engine. I'm really at my wits end with all this and would appreciate any help from you all.

Edited May 7, 2010 by honehe

[heliosuk]

Ok, lets forget the strops as that is secondary now. Lets deal with the actual vehicle. What is it and what do you need doing?

 

The dropping issue is something which can be dealt with seperately but it seems to me the priority is fixing the car problem first and then pursuing Mickey Mouse. Just remember there are a lot of experts floating around here so you are in good hands but take what is said on board.

 

Tell us what your problem with the van is and from the above I think you'll be surprised.

[honehe]

hi there thanks for the fast reply. My vehicle is a 1994 Chevrolet Astro day van. It's a 4.3L 12 valve V6 vortec engine. At the moment the subframe, drive shaft and everything else attached to the engine needs reconnecting and the air con needs recharging cos he had to disconnect that. The whole engine compartment needs everything reconnecting including the wiring and of course a new engine. Im not sure what else is required, but it's all ripped out and needs putting back. I have already got the head gasket kit, and apparently he has overhauled that already, but I'm not sure cos he has it in his workshop. What else do you need to know? Thanks for your help by the way, I really appreciate the time you are taking to help me out.

[Boro]

honehe which part of cornwall are you in?

[honehe]

About 2 miles from newquay airport, but my van is at RAF St Mawgan camp which backs onto the airport.

[heliosuk]

Yikes!!! a big bugger then:) I was praying for a VW type2 which I can remove in 15 mins.

 

Still not sure of the original complaint. What caused you to call this bloke in in the first place? That's what is needed. Don't initially worry about the aircon as that is an ancillary that can be got over at a later date. Would be interesting to note though how he discharged the system as this is very regulated. If he vented it off to atomosphere then keep a note of time and place if you can.

 

We need to go back to step one so to speak.

 

What was the failure that led you to him?

 

It's important we know what is actually wrong. If possible can you ask Mickey Mouse what has been damaged in the removal process?

[honehe]

sorry forgot to mention the orginal problem. The van wouldn't start one day and so I called the RAC out, they cited that it could be the distributor cap, rotor arm and possibly leads. They took it to a local garage and they replaced all those parts (£220 cost). then it started but was bucking and missing every now and then, so I took it to another garage (cos the first one had it over a week before doing anything on it).

 

They changed the ignition coil because they said it was shorting on the bodywork.

 

Then the top hose sprung a leak at the base, so I replaced that, cos it was old and cracked inside. I also had the spark plugs done, the drive belt replaced and a new distributor put in.

 

I then noticed that it was sounding rough and vibrating on idle and took it to another garage, they checked it over, but I can't remember off hand what they changed, but after that it sounded worse than ever and then started stalling as though the timing was out. I had a mechanic at work look at it and he told me it was possible piston slap in one of the cylinders.

 

Because the other garages hadn't fixed the problem, I decided to go with word of mouth to find someone to fix it. My friend had his renault laguna engine redone by this mechanic and it was a good job, so I decided to call him and when he listened to the engine he came up with the same diagnosis as the guy at work and said it was piston slap. So I asked him to do the job and the rest is my nighmare!

 

I know chevy astro engines are a pain and no-one really wants to touch them, but I'm in such dispair over this, I really don't know who to turn to that I can rely on. Any suggestions would be most appreciated. thanks again for your assistance with this. I will try and ask him what has been damaged during the removal, but he has been like lord lucan ever since and won't answer his phone. I have sent him a text asking for my van keys and to return the head to me, but I will try and get hold of him and let you know. I do know that he said because one of the drive wheels was bent that it would have sent shocks through the block and so it could be bent all the way through.

Edited May 8, 2010 by honehe

[heliosuk]

An engine is an engine honehe so the fact it is an astro is nether here or there. I doubt it is damaged and is being used as an excuse.

I reckon you have a misfire for which there is an age old procedure to check out.

 

We need to get you back to step one, get it all back together again and start from go.

[honehe]

The drive wheel is definitely bent, I saw that myself. How can I find a reliable and good mechanic to sort it out? Any recommendations would be most appreciated. I'm so worried about getting ripped off again, how can I vet a mechanic to ensure that it doesn't happen again? You are an absolute diamond and I can't thank you enough for helping me, I was beginning to lose hope.

[HF whO?]

Unfortunately, it seems that the mechanic did not have the right tools for the job and had to improvise. Tie downs are not lifting slings and should not be used for any lifting purposes. Luckily nobody was injured.

 

The mechanic should have refused the offer of tie downs and should have lifted the engine using proper lifting slings or lifting points.

 

Is a mobile mechanic qualified to give an opinion on the suitability of lifting equipment, I think not. Perhaps it could be argued that he was negligent in this respect.

 

The mechanic should have insurance and as he seems to know the limitations of his insurance should not have taken the risk he did.

 

Out of interest, who's engine hoist was being used?

 

I am a Slinger/Signaller and Telescopic Forklift Operator and there is no "Improvising" allowed within the Health and Safety Law, it's by the book or have the book thrown at you if anything goes wrong.

 

I am both responsible for what goes up and what comes down, every time I put a load in the sky I'm putting my arse on the line so it HAS to be right.

 

He should have, like I have on site on numerous occasions, refused to carry out the work until he had the appropriate equipment.

 

I actually walked off site once because the site manager demanded that I use a forklift that I had spotted had a hydraulic leak whilst I carried out my pre start inspection.

 

I told him to go forth and left site!

 

Have you PAID him any money and have you received any receipts for the work to date? What happens if you cannot prove that you've paid him and he says he was doing it as a favour???

 

Also, how can you need a new engine from it being dropped? Surely it's just the oil pan that has been damaged mostly? How high was it when it dropped?

 

I have spent many years in the Motor Industry and still work on my own cars as a Hobby and I find it hard to believe that a complete engine would be required?

 

You wouldn't expect an Electrician to turn up at your house without the appropriate tools would you? I can imagine an Electrician trying to strip a cable with a bread knife and chopping his hand off and then suing you lol

 

He's the tradesman and HE should work within the Law that Health and Safety dictate.

 

I wish you all the best in resolving this issue, I'm going to sub to see how you get on:)

[honehe]

Hi HF whO?. The hoist that he was using belongs to the motor club, which he has just joined prior to this incident and he was given a health and safety brief on becoming a member. From what I gather the sump had been removed and the way it dropped, from about 2 ft onto concrete, he said it had bent everything underneath and the drive wheel which is why he said I needed a new engine. I asked him if he could take a look at it to see what damage had actually been done and if it was repairable and he said he already knew what damage there was and didn't need to. He said he was going to get his mate to have a look and take some measurements to see what the extent of the damage was, I said okay as long as he paid for the check, which resulted in an argument over the phone, so I have no idea what damage there is, I'm only going on what he told me at the moment. I have been paying him after each visit and have received hand written receipts, so I have all those anyway, luckily I always keep stuff like that cos you never know! Thanks for your support and hopefully I will resolve the issue with him eventually, I just need to concentrate on getting my van back to normal now, fingers crossed!!!!

[HF whO?]

You have my sympathy as I too am a huge car enthusist and I know I would be devastated if this had happened to my pride and joy.

 

If the sump was off then then I understand what kind of damage has been caused especially from two feet:(

 

I say he desserves a good ****ing, I really do wish you luck.

[honehe]

Yeah I am devastated, but hopefully I can find a decent mechanic to put it right, could really use the holiday I was planning on just to chill out after being so stressed about all this, but he put the kybosh on that aswell!!! thanks for the comments, I appreciate it, think I'm going to need a lot of luck lol

[Conniff]

An engine is an engine honehe so the fact it is an astro is nether here or there. I doubt it is damaged and is being used as an excuse.

I reckon you have a misfire for which there is an age old procedure to check out.

 

We need to get you back to step one, get it all back together again and start from go.

 

honehe, do you know what piston slap is?

 

I don't know this van, but having had a look around, it drops out the bottom which I assume he has done, because you mention subframe, so why was he slinging it?

 

Another thing that has come to mind is that he has realised that he has bitten off more than he can chew and decided that he don't want to do it. A competant mechanic can take on just about any job, even if he hasn't done it before, all you need is to be methodical.

Depending on how tidy he is, you might find it a bit difficult to get someone else to take it on unless experienced in this particular van.

 

As heliosuk has said, an engine is an engine and the only difference in any of them is basically a few pipes or wires and size, which holds true from a reliant robin to a 7.2ltr twin turbo Bentley.

 

Also with the engine removed, he has you by the bollox so with the £1,500 for removal in mind, I would say if you continue to use him, you must be looking at another £3,000 at least to get it finished.

 

£1,500 equates to roughly 50 hours, so what was he doing all that time?

 

Do you have a workshop manual for it?

 

Piston slap has nothing whatsoever to do with your original complaint, so if he diagnosed the misfire as piston slap, then he isn't a trained mechanic or thought that sounded good when he told you.

 

Anyway, that don't help with the the problem you now have. Unless he was working in a professional capacity and not as a private individual, you will have no comeback on him.

 

Can you force him to do it? NO

Would you want to take him to court if he refuses to complete the job?

No court could make him complete the work. So that would be pointless

Could a court order him to pay for someone else to do the job?

Yes they could, but if he didn't want to pay or doesn't have the money, there is nothing the court can do to make him pay.

Even if he did get back on it, could you trust him to complete the job to a high standard after any form of threat.

 

I see your only way out here is to either ask a proper garage to come and examin/assess if there is any physical damage or to transport it to a garage for the same, and to give you a quote for the work required to refurbish and replace.

 

Piston slap or no, it would be a shame to not work on it now that it is out of the van, even if it was just to give the heads an overhaul, but even that could have it's problems if you haven't a workshop manual ie are the bolts torque or stretch, the sorts of thing that would be peculier to this engine. Also do you have a full head gasket set or just a head gasket, that would be no good on its own, there are seals that would have to be replaced.

 

The removal has made this very awkward to come to a conclusion on. I know what I would personally do, and heliosuk would probably do the same, but that's me so I won't say anything to try and influence you as it all come down to cost and affordability.

[honehe]

Hi Conniff, my understanding of piston slap is when the piston is slightly offset and is hitting the head. He said that the top of the piston is scored where he believes the spark plug has been impacting on it.

 

He originally tried to get the piston out by tapping from underneath to take it out the top of the engine, but then realised it wasn't going to work so said that the engine had to come out.

 

I have got a haynes manual for it, which he referred to a couple of times and at first he was going to try and pull the engine forward out the front, so removed all the front bumper and ancilliaries. I did tell him that I believed it had to come out underneath and when he came back the next time that's what he did. He took the subframe off and jacked up the body to get the engine out.

 

He was using the sling so that he could move the engine out of the way and was going to place it on a bench to remove the piston in number one cylinder.

 

I've no idea what he was doing all that time, even though I was there for all but one visit, he didn't seem to achieve a lot each time, although he was working on it, but I get the feeling he was dragging the job out now.

 

He is a self employed mobile mechanic down here in cornwall, and as he had already done a friends vehicle I trusted him.

 

From what I believe, he is responsible to return the engine to the orignal state before it was dropped, ie, unbent and that is to be done by him (in which case I would have an independent assessment done after) or he has to foot the bill to get that achieved.

 

I do have a full gasket set for this, he has one of the heads in his workshop which he says has been overhauled.

 

I'm going to try and contact him and see if he is willing to get the engine back to what it was before the drop, but I don't hold out much hope for it. As for the cost, I won't be using him to put the thing back together again, because I think I would prefer someone a bit more professional.

 

thanks for the advice. I will keep you all posted about the outcome.

[HF whO?]

honehe, are you a member of any Astro van forums? astro van forum - Google Search

 

The forum I use helps with anything from "where is my dipstcik" to "advice on fitting a V8 into a......"

 

I have over 11500 posts on the forum I use:D

 

I always stick with .co.uk forums rather than the .com ones;)

[Conniff]

Nice post HF. dedicated forums are always a good idea if you are looking for information for a certain object and there are forums for practically everything now.

[HF whO?]

Nice post HF. dedicated forums are always a good idea if you are looking for information for a certain object and there are forums for practically everything now.

 

 

It's exactly how I found you guys:D

 

It's amazing what you can find out on the internet so long as you know what to search.

 

There are sad cases like myself that are only too happy to help when it comes to helping others fix their cars:p

 

Just because they're grease monkeys doesn't mean that they cannot use a computer:D:D:D