pls help!appeal hearing soon.

[laingy]

we he wrote his appeal letter for him being sacked,

he also then requested copies of his contract etc to be sent to him.

 

they havent acknowledged that at all.

 

shall we mention this at the appeal?

[Bigredbus]

This is not late at all...

 

They should have acted legally when they employed your son and therefore should have produced a statement of particulars of employment within two months of him starting.

 

If you want, you can raise a grievance during his meeting... that would have for effect to stop the meeting until they investigate the content of his grievance.

 

I would start by a letter (recorded delivery), requesting true copy of statement of particulars of employment and a copy of the internal disciplinary and grievance procedure (to be delivered before the hearing takes place).

Edited March 2, 2010 by Bigredbus
Addendum

[laingy]

so would his grievance be that they have never produced a statement of employment or given him a copy of internal and grievance procedures.

 

as you said BRB could we raise this at the start of the meeting?

[honeybee13]

That sounds a good plan, BRB. So the appeal has to be put on hold until they've investigated the grievance?

 

It could be a bit late for a Rec Del letter though. I thought they took 2 days. Laingy, are you close enough to deliver a letter and get someone on Reception say, to sign for it?

 

If the others think that's a good idea, of course.

[Bigredbus]

You surely can... raise it at the beginning of the meeting.

 

And the content of that grievance should enclose that fact (I remind you that if they attempt to tell you that he has a copy of his 'contract', that copy should have been signed by your son and counter-signed by a director or HR staff... and dated back to his start at the company).

 

You are not suppose to know what the internal disciplinary and grievance procedures are if you never have had a copy of the documents...

 

(To answer to 'honeybee13' post)

 

They can postpone the meeting until those documents are in their possession or else deliver the letter personally, as long as someone signs for it...

[honeybee13]

Laingy, to answer your question about your son's grievance, I would say lack of paperwork is one aspect of it, plus the delay in providing the details once you'd asked for them.

 

Also, the way he's been treated compared with the manager who did the same thing they call gross misconduct when it's your son. Then there's his treatment recently, lack of payrise etc, and feeling he's being bullied or victimised. I hope I've read your original post right...

[laingy]

unfortunately we are not close enough to hand deliver.

 

correct me if im wrong,but surely they have checked and now know he has no signed contract etc.

otherwise im sure they would have sent him a copy out.

 

would they not stop and think that they have not acted legally,which would help his case.

[honeybee13]

Too right BRB, they're trying to tie Laingy's sons' hands behind his back really. Bad management often try to keep all the knowledge for themselves, so people like Laingy junior are fighting blind.

 

Laingy, are you starting to put a plan together?

[honeybee13]

How do you mean about helping his case, Laingy? For his appeal, or a possible case with an employment tribunal?

 

They may well realise they can't provide the paperwork, but could be too dim to know it's a problem, or they're trying to bluff it out and hope your son doesn't know as much as he does about procedures.

 

Ms_J's thread has a lot of that kind of stuff with an ex-employer who sounds to be a maverick.

[laingy]

honeybee you are correct in your reading.

 

well i think the plan is starting to come together.

 

can i run it past you guys please?

 

1)before the meeting starts we ask if there is anything to disclose that has not been already?

 

2)hubby puts forward the reasons for why we feel he has been un fairly dismissed.incorporating the fact that he has no signed terms and conditions etc.

 

3)if they decide to offer him his job back and he refuses,THATS IT basically.we cant go any further.

 

4)if they agree that he was unfairly dismissed but understand working relations are now beyond repair,can we ask for the reason to be changed eg;made redundant,job finish etc.

 

5)if they stand by there decision we then inform them of our grievance and shall be seeking legal advice.

 

6)contact acas for them to take up "compromise agreement"

 

comments please

[Bigredbus]

In answer to post #32

 

You would be surprised by how many employers try to 'bluff' their way out of those situations by just mentioning that they sent copies at the beginning of their employee's contract... but soon realise that the document they are sending has not been signed by the said employee... therefore asserting the fact that it has never been sent...

 

The lack of documents is of help, indeed... If they have to follow a specific procedure, so do you and how can you if you have no 'clue' as per that procedure?

 

He has been dismissed for unsatisfactory behaviour... For what you know, the content of their disciplinary and grievance procedures may say something completely different on the matter (this is highly speculative here, and should only be taken as an example).

[Bigredbus]

honeybee you are correct in your reading.

 

well i think the plan is starting to come together.

 

can i run it past you guys please?

 

a) request disclosure of statement of particulars of employment and internal disciplinary and grievance docs first and before anything.

 

1)before the meeting starts we ask if there is anything to disclose that has not been already? (Good)

 

2)hubby puts forward the reasons for why we feel he has been un fairly dismissed.incorporating the fact that he has no signed terms and conditions etc. (Good, and add that he never received a copy of the disciplinary and grievance procedures, as well).

 

3)if they decide to offer him his job back and he refuses,THATS IT basically.we cant go any further. (Correct)

 

4)if they agree that he was unfairly dismissed but understand working relations are now beyond repair,can we ask for the reason to be changed eg;made redundant,job finish etc. (Risky... you would have to ask them to produce a reference letter there and then to be sure the content of it is of satisfaction to your son, but you certainly should ask)

 

5)if they stand by there decision we then inform them of our grievance and shall be seeking legal advice. (Detail the grievance - Good)

 

6)contact acas for them to take up "compromise agreement" (Ok)

 

comments please

 

Comments above.

[laingy]

BRB you would also be very suprised on how this company actually work.

 

as i previously told you my hubby worked for them for 9yrs.

 

they think they are above the law.

 

If they do make errors,the owners attitude is to "just pay him off"

 

and thats exactly what they have done on numerous occasions.

 

we are talking about a property developer who is worth £££££££££££££££

[madari]

You must ask in writing all the documents that you wish the employer to disclose to you [even after dismissal]especially the contract of employment & and ll company desciplinary procedures.

[regardless of weather it was previously supplied or not]

 

Do not listen to Acas as they are working hand in hand with the employer.

 

And as for the solicitors advice ,i think he is misleading you as all internal procedures have to be exausted in case the matter ever reaches court.

 

I dont know what part of the country you are from but i suggest you google:`Community legal advice centre` and find the nearest [or any other] and give them a call.

 

They will advice you accordingly but i think they close at 3:00pm daily.

 

Let us know how you get on.

[laingy]

we live on the wirral,my son lives in the bedfordshire area.

 

the reason i originally found this site was because for 2 weeks i have been ringing there advice line(only open certain hours) and there phone lines has been continually busy.

 

i spoke to my local one,they said we need to speak to someone in his area by making an appointment with a law specialist who is only in certain days a week.

tried again all morning today.still engaged.

[madari]

If the company think that they are `above the law` and most of them do then i will be very surprised that your appeal against dismissal will succeed and therefore you must put in a claim to the employment tribunal in the hope that they might come to a compromise before going to tribunal.....remember you can withdraw your claim to the employment tribunal on the day of the hearing, in otherwords you are calling your Bluff in the hope that they will pay you off.

Edited March 2, 2010 by madari

[Bigredbus]

Try those two too..

 

LawWorks Home Page

 

and/or

 

The Bar Pro Bono Unit: Free Legal Advice and Representation

[madari]

Try ringing the Sheffield office Tel 0114 2731888 or the one in Newcastle.

[laingy]

neither of us live in that area,so they cant discuss it with you.

you have to contact your nearest.

[madari]

Thats not true .....,there is no harm in trying.

[laingy]

will give it a go then

[elpulpo]

Not only should he ask for a copy of the internal disciplinary and grievance procedure but also a copy of his statement of particulars of employment which, if my memory serves, have never been produced.

Don't agree at all, BRB. If an employee, who's never had written T&C's, requests such after they've been accused of misconduct, then the employer is likely to include the alleged misconduct as an express condition in the written statement. Better to just leave it.

Plus, an employee can claim 2/4 weeks pay in compensation at ET for failure to provide a written statement.

The employee isn't in a worse position for not have a written statement, the employer is.

[mariefab]

Laingy

If I have understood you correctly your son intends to go to the appeal meeting but doesn't wish to be reinstated. Instead he hopes to achieve a reference and a compromise agreement.

 

If this is the case it may be best to just stick to the grounds that he wrote in his appeal letter.

i.e. what he did (giving the piece of ply) was something that he knew that the senior manager had done recently, therefore he had no reason to suppose that it was wrong.

If they follow their form so far they'll confirm his dismissal.

 

Raising a grievance or pointing out the errors that the Company has made at the appeal stage...

(No contract/statement of particulars, no disciplinary procedure documentation. Did they inform him of his right to be accompanied by a work colleague or union rep. at the disciplinary meeting? etc.)

....just gives them a heads up and an opportunity to correct their mistakes and weakens your son's case.

 

In my opinion the solicitor you spoke to is giving you better advice than ACAS at the moment. In your son's circumstances a compromise agreement (or COT3) would usually only come into play after he has put in a claim to an Employment Tribunal for unfair dismissal and this is where ACAS could assist. (Be aware that ACAS do not take sides as such; their role is to settle the case before it comes to a Tribunal hearing.)

A reference can be part of the agreement.

Edited March 2, 2010 by mariefab
adding a line

[honeybee13]

Hi Laingy. It's good to have Mariefab's view on this, she gives good advice.

 

Thanks Marie, I think we were starting to go round in circles.

 

HB

[elpulpo]

Laingy

If I have understood you correctly your son intends to go to the appeal meeting but doesn't wish to be reinstated. Instead he hopes to achieve a reference and a compromise agreement.

 

If this is the case it may be best to just stick to the grounds that he wrote in his appeal letter.

i.e. what he did (giving the piece of ply) was something that he knew that the senior manager had done recently, therefore he had no reason to suppose that it was wrong.

If they follow their form so far they'll confirm his dismissal.

 

Raising a grievance or pointing out the errors that the Company has made at the appeal stage...

(No contract/statement of particulars, no disciplinary procedure documentation. Did they inform him of his right to be accompanied by a work colleague or union rep. at the disciplinary meeting? etc.)

....just gives them a heads up and an opportunity to correct their mistakes and weakens your son's case.

 

In my opinion the solicitor you spoke to is giving you better advice than ACAS at the moment. In your son's circumstances a compromise agreement (or COT3) would usually only come into play after he has put in a claim to an Employment Tribunal for unfair dismissal and this is where ACAS could assist. (Be aware that ACAS do not take sides as such; their role is to settle the case before it comes to a Tribunal hearing.)

A reference can be part of the agreement.

Second that entirely.

Just go through the motions at the appeal, then after the application to ET and ACAS get in touch, it should be relatively easy to mediate a settlement.