Curious twist on two CCA requests-they are taking me to Court!

[m55dlc]

OK, how do you find out if someone has an original agreement, and I was of the understanding that microfiched copies were admissible?

 

I would be very surprised to hear that microfiche is not allowed....

[FANTASY CHARGES]

....

[The Lantana]

It's admissable unless you dispute it, then the Judge can decide.

 

Many cases are won by claimants because the respondent doesn't ask for the original and simply accepts the microfiche / photocopy etc. I think not being able to read the copy is perfectly reasonable grounds for insisting on the original.

 

Personally and regardless of legibility, I'd insist that it's my right to see the original - I'm not standing for guilt by photocopy! There must be something here under human rights legislation.

 

JMHO

 

Regards

 

 

Lantana

[The Lantana]

Apologies Laiste, not trying to hijack.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

[rippedoffagain]

Any news Laiste?

[JonCris]

OK, how do you find out if someone has an original agreement, and I was of the understanding that microfiched copies were admissible?

 

I would be very surprised to hear that microfiche is not allowed....

 

They are not as follows:

 

The court's powers under section 127(1) are subject to significant qualification in two types of cases. The first type is where section 61(1)(a), regarding signing of agreements, is not complied with. In such cases the court 'shall not make' an enforcement order unless a document, whether or not in the prescribed form, containing all the prescribed terms, was signed by the debtor: section 127(3). Thus, signature of a document containing all the prescribed terms is an essential prerequisite to the court's power to make an enforcement order. The second type of case concerns failure to comply with the duty to supply a copy of an executed or unexecuted agreement pursuant to sections 62 and 63, or failure to comply with the duty to give notice of cancellation rights in accordance with section 64(1). Here again, subject to one exception regarding sections 62 and 63, section 127(4) precludes the court from making an enforcement order.

 

Section 65(1) provides that an improperly executed agreement shall be enforceable only "on an order of the court." Section 127 gives the court power to make orders for the enforcement of agreements that are, for various reasons, improperly executed. But subsection (3) provides that a court shall not make an enforcement order for an agreement that does not comply with section 61(1)(a) unless the debtor signed a document containing "all the prescribed terms."

[The Lantana]

Joncris

 

Thanks for your post but I don't see how it addresses m55's question, namely the admissability of microfiche (or am I having a thicky moment).

 

Personally I always assumed it's my right to see the original (in court), but many cases are won by creditors because the defendant doesn't assert his / her right, and blindly accepts a microfiche copy.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

[voyager9]

hi laiste

 

first of all i must say how annoyed i am you kept me up untill 2.30 am last night reading this thread lol

 

i must say i am disgusted at how the courts have treated you and has clearly no respect for anyone who follows court procedure correctly, completely the opposite actually!!

 

please keep on fighting you are doing a wonderful job and i cant believe how quickly you have got your head round all this and i admire your courage!

 

this thread will be an inspiration to everyone who is or are thinking about taking on these people well done:)

[Laiste]

Hi Voyager,

 

It is very remiss of me I know, to keep people up way past their bedtime reading the tome that is the case with HFC and previously Egg! I appreciate your support and many thanks for boring yourself witless reading my innumerable wafflings...!

 

There is nothing to report really other than I will be filing my very lengthy amended defence on the 3rd April. I decided not to file an appeal of the Judge's decisions in the telephone hearing. I had a long think about it and I am confident in the arguments I have without the penalty charges being an issue. There is also the the time factor. I am helping quite a few people not just on this site, who are in difficult situations, so I just took the view that I would go to trial with what I have. I hope I don't live to regret that decision!:o

 

Lantana, with regard to agreements, I would say that companies for the most part produce whatever agreement they have, when its requested. They cannot just turn up at Crt on the day of the trial with said document! Paperwork that a party intends to rely on at trial is submitted long before the trial itself. Besides which, hypothetically, if a creditor did turn up with an agreement, the debtor should seek an adjournment to have time to consider the new information. The CPR removes that element of surprise that parties would have taken advantage of prior to its introduction.

 

Can I post up details of books to help people and the website regarding where to get them? Perhaps a mod can answer. In particular, the changes to the CCA 1974, is something that everyone will need to be au fait with and are covered in a very helpful book that I use. Do bear in mind however, that these books are not cheap, but then again no law texts are!

 

Regards to all!

 

Laiste.

[joneshousehold]

Laiste

The book you refer to sounds very useful. If you don't get permission to post it on here can you pm me the details. I have struggled at times to get access to all the later regulations

 

Thanks and good luck with your hearing

[voyager9]

laiste

same here if you dont get permission please pm me the details thanks

 

good look!

[zubo]

Laiste

 

I caught a flavour of some of your arguments in the last few posts. I am tired - too much drink - so need sleep and to be sober to soak up your thread.

 

Looks very interesting.

 

btw, if anybody knows why a CCA failed request after 30 days is punishable by £2,500 or 3 months imprisonment - can they let me know their source.

 

Thanks

 

Z

[JonCris]

Because it's a criminal offence which upon conviction must carry a fine and/or imprisoment which in turn is set by statute

[PriorityOne]

Because it's a criminal offence which upon conviction must carry a fine and/or imprisoment which in turn is set by statute

 

How often does this actually happen in reality though, JonCris ?

[zubo]

Because it's a criminal offence which upon conviction must carry a fine and/or imprisoment which in turn is set by statute

 

JC

 

yes but where does it stipulate the type of offence and likely punishment - the Act does not cover this detail - more to the point I dont understand s167

where are the modes columns in Schedule 1 it refers to??

 

Laiste,

 

I have complimented your skills in a seperate thread - keep this standard up and your strength up, you know you have justice on your side - even though some (probably jaded) judge cannot follow your approach and logic. Judges like this do not appear to be unbiased and I would certainly complain about him to the judiciary, and is it possible to request an assessment of the correctness of his direction of the case and get the case transferred to another judge?

 

Z

[Guest Battleaxe]

JC

 

yes but where does it stipulate the type of offence and likely punishment - the Act does not cover this detail - more to the point I dont understand s167

where are the modes columns in Schedule 1 it refers to??

 

Laiste,

 

I have complimented your skills in a seperate thread - keep this standard up and your strength up, you know you have justice on your side - even though some (probably jaded) judge cannot follow your approach and logic. Judges like this do not appear to be unbiased and I would certainly complain about him to the judiciary, and is it possible to request an assessment of the correctness of his direction of the case and get the case transferred to another judge?

 

Z

 

Here you go Zubo Standard scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia It's section 17 of the Criminal Justice Act 1991

[zubo]

Here you go Zubo Standard scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia It's section 17 of the Criminal Justice Act 1991

 

thanks BA

 

Z

[Laiste]

Hi to all,

 

I have a couple of Q's to pose, so as ever feel free to comment/give advice!

 

Even though the penalty charges were taken off the amount outstanding, the interest wasn't. As part of my (lengthy) argument, I am going to contend that such interest amounts to an extortionate credit bargain, because you cannot levy interest on unlawful charges. Invoking the ECB argument may persuade the Judge to set aside the agreement and also force HFC to repay monies. These are options available to the Judge under s137.

 

What I want to know is how do I find out what interest has been charged on the charges and how do I work it out? Maths really isn't my strong suit, so if there's an idiot's way of working it out, that would be

appreciated!

 

Thanks Zubo for your positive comments and complimenting me elsewhere, I thought my laptop's ears were burning!

 

Regards,

 

Laiste.

[joneshousehold]

You could perhaps try using Vampiresses spreadsheet and alter the formula to reflect the interest rate charged by the creditor. The formula on the spreadsheet includes the figure 0.00022 which is 8% divided by 365 as it calculated interest on the number of days. Simply find out the interest rate used (it should be shown on a statement I think) and apply the calculation in the same way. 1 x ??% then divide by 365. The result is put into the formula to replace 0.00022.

 

If you are still not sure tell me the rate and I will let you know the resulting figure. If you have lots of rates then use the highest

[zubo]

You could perhaps try using Vampiresses spreadsheet and alter the formula to reflect the interest rate charged by the creditor. The formula on the spreadsheet includes the figure 0.00022 which is 8% divided by 365 as it calculated interest on the number of days. Simply find out the interest rate used (it should be shown on a statement I think) and apply the calculation in the same way. 1 x ??% then divide by 365. The result is put into the formula to replace 0.00022.

 

If you are still not sure tell me the rate and I will let you know the resulting figure. If you have lots of rates then use the highest

 

Laiste

 

As an ex Maths teacher let me try to explain simply how I do it:

 

It is better to use one interest rate for all charges.

 

Basically a cell on the spreadsheet contains the daily interest rate derived from 8%pa.

 

Another cell contains todays date.

 

For Each charge we use todays date - the date of the charge to work out how many days has elapsed since the charge was applied.

Then that is multiplied by the daily interest rate to give the total interest you are claiming back for that single transaction.

Add them all up and you have the total interest you require.

 

Whenever you wish to revisit your claim, just change the cell containing todays date and you have a new total.

 

Z

[m55dlc]

Laiste

 

As an ex Maths teacher let me try to explain simply how I do it:

 

It is better to use one interest rate for all charges.

 

Basically a cell on the spreadsheet contains the daily interest rate derived from 8%pa.

 

Another cell contains todays date.

 

For Each charge we use todays date - the date of the charge to work out how many days has elapsed since the charge was applied.

Then that is multiplied by the daily interest rate to give the total interest you are claiming back for that single transaction.

Add them all up and you have the total interest you require.

 

Whenever you wish to revisit your claim, just change the cell containing todays date and you have a new total.

 

Z

 

It's not as simple as that. If you have an interest rate of 25%, say, the second month also has interest of 25% charged on the interest charged. Where are you putting the compound interest into this equation?

 

Following on from a couple of recent posts, the CCP are beginning to state that funds are allocated towards paying off charges first so there is no interest generated on charges - so applying interest of anything other than the 8% may become a mute point

[zubo]

It's not as simple as that. If you have an interest rate of 25%, say, the second month also has interest of 25% charged on the interest charged. Where are you putting the compound interest into this equation?

 

Following on from a couple of recent posts, the CCP are beginning to state that funds are allocated towards paying off charges first so there is no interest generated on charges - so applying interest of anything other than the 8% may become a mute point

 

m55

 

you last point first - exactly how I see it.

first point = valid comment - thanks for spotting it - brain not engaged - I was explaining simple interest not compounded.

Laise - send me or Jones the details pmd and we will give you a spreadsheet to use.

 

Z

[Cornucopia]

It's not as simple as that. If you have an interest rate of 25%, say, the second month also has interest of 25% charged on the interest charged. Where are you putting the compound interest into this equation?

 

Following on from a couple of recent posts, the CCP are beginning to state that funds are allocated towards paying off charges first so there is no interest generated on charges - so applying interest of anything other than the 8% may become a mute point

 

M, I am wondering if you are referring to my letter from Goldfish in which they state exactly that, however, I would ask them to prove it. I can't see anything in my statements that shows that the charges haven't attracted interest. I think this is an attempt to avoid paying interest. I am certainly not accepting this.

 

Sorry for hijacking your thread Laiste, just wanted to clear this up!

 

M, am v.fired up about MBNA, Pers has posted something interesting on my thread - have a look, it applies to you too! x

[Laiste]

Hi everyone!

 

I appreciate everybody's contribution re the interest calculation. Maths has always been a subject I have real difficulty getting to grips with! Law, not a problem, maths....well, what I say?!!!!

 

I am going to go through the stmts from HFC a bit later. Would it be a good idea if I post on here the dates and amounts of charges and I presume the interest rate applicable for purchases at the time the charge(s) was levied? Or is there a higher rate charged, that I should be looking for given that the interest has been charged on a charge?

 

Cornucopia, it's fine, I don't think you're hijacking at all! Very often you can only illustrate a point by explaining your own circumstances, which really is fine!

 

Regards,

 

Laiste.

[zubo]

Hi everyone!

 

I appreciate everybody's contribution re the interest calculation. Maths has always been a subject I have real difficulty getting to grips with! Law, not a problem, maths....well, what I say?!!!!

 

I am going to go through the stmts from HFC a bit later. Would it be a good idea if I post on here the dates and amounts of charges and I presume the interest rate applicable for purchases at the time the charge(s) was levied? Or is there a higher rate charged, that I should be looking for given that the interest has been charged on a charge?

 

Cornucopia, it's fine, I don't think you're hijacking at all! Very often you can only illustrate a point by explaining your own circumstances, which really is fine!

 

Regards,

 

Laiste.

 

Do just that Laiste and we will see who comes up with the biggest (correct) number.

 

Z