Welcome Secured Loan Mess!

[Martel]

Here’s the chronology of my Welcome experience so far (sorry if it’s boring, familiar and predictable!).

 

In January 2007, I took out a personal loan for £4,500

 

In January 2008, I was encouraged by Welcome to take out a larger, secured loan for £25,000, which I foolishly did.

 

Welcome does not have an office in this area, so a member of staff came to my house with the paperwork for me to sign. He couldn’t find a parking space and asked me to get in his car to sign the docs!! I declined and he came into the property. I seem to remember that PPI had been included – I told him I didn’t want it and he said he’d have to issue new paperwork. Again, I seem to remember that the paperwork was posted to me, I signed it and posted it back. The bottom line is that I did NOT sign in a Welcome office.

 

I defaulted on the loan. When Lewis Debt Recovery, Welcome’s in house recovery unit, contacted me in September 2009, I sent a CCA request and an SAR, separately. Lewis refused to respond and instructed me to contact Welcome directly. I wrote back and pointed out that Lewis IS Welcome. Anyway, my CCA request and SAR found their way to Welcome in Nottingham (assume this is their head office?). I then received a letter from Howard Cohen solicitors saying it was a ‘Notice of Pending Legal Action’ – but have not heard from them since.

 

Since then, I’ve been bombarded with letters from the Compliance Dept, all sent Recorded Delivery. I’ve been sent:

 

System Notes that detail Welcome’s efforts to contact me on the phone – it’s very detailed and comes with a list of explanations for the Abbreviations used. Their aggravation at being unable to contact me verges on the hysterical.

 

a smudgy copy of my ‘agreement’, signed by Welcome about a month after I did – looks like others I’ve seen on other threads

 

a Loan Statement, with a lot of odd charges, e.g., ‘fee disbursement’, ‘capitalisation’

 

a copy of a an unwitnessed Legal Charge,

 

an unsigned Without Prejudice letter, on blank stationery and an unsigned Default Notice on blank stationery

 

an unsigned Without Prejudice Letter, dated Nov 2009, on blank stationery regarding a ‘hire purchase,’ that threatens to repossess my vehicle (!)

 

Another Default Notice, also dated Nov 2009, unsigned and on blank stationery

 

A collection of unsigned letters on blank stationery, all dated Nov 2009, about representatives calling at my home and unable to locate me (no one ever did)

 

Two identical Settlement Statements (‘persuant’ (sic) to Section 97), unsigned on blank stationery, dated Nov 2009, referring to my request, again undated

 

Two unsigned letters on blank stationery, dated Nov 2009, RE: Secured loan contract and Legal Charge Agreement that detail my payment schedule

 

Sadly, I don’t have an operable scanner at the moment.

 

In response to my letter challenging the legibility of my agreement, Welcome responded with a letter that simply types in the Key Financial Information in large font in the letter. The total cost of credit is £2,000 more than double the amount borrowed (!). I’ve written back and said these figures are irrelevant, as this information must be included in the actual and LEGIBLE agreement.

 

I’ve also written back, asking Welcome to explain the misinformation on my files at the CRAs – the monthly amount s incorrect (not by much) and the number of monthly payments is also wrong (one extra) – and it’s referred to as a ‘Mortgage’ and a ‘Joint Account’ – wrong again.

 

I’m worried that Welcome can collect the loan because it’s secured on my property.

 

Anyway, any advice on how to handle all this will be gratefully received!!

 

Thanks in advance! Mx

[citizenB]

Just bumping your thread for you.

[Martel]

Just bumping your thread for you.

 

Hiya, thanks...but what does 'bumping' mean? MX

[MandM]

Hiya, thanks...but what does 'bumping' mean? MX

By posting on your thread it moves you up the "New Posts" and "Todays Posts" lists. Shifts you to the top and help draw some attention - hopefully someone will notice you (i'm sure they will) and give a bit of advice.

 

You've now been bumped again

 

MandM

[Martel]

citizen B and MandM, thanks for the bump! MX

[ozzywizard]

Martel, hang in their somone will help you with this. They will probably ask you to post your agreement on here (edit out your personnel information) .

Welcome are so unprofessional and unbelievable when it comes to customer service. good luck and use this thread as your welcome diary so update it if any further action.

[brassed-off-2]

Complain to the CRA,preferably via the email complaint process, regarding the inaccurate information that has been recorded, they will contact welcome, investigate it and reply back,..this way you will have a paper trail via them...looks better too if you take your complaints further via the FOS or court route.

 

Unfortunately welcome have a habbit of adding the extra month on, and are now well known to the cra's for it, caggers must have generated enough complaints to prove that, report it to the ICO, too, inappropriate recording of personal information!!...false accounting...looks good on paper for the share holders!!

[Martel]

Thank you, Ozzy and Brassed!

 

Yes, I know there's a lot of competition on this site regarding Welcome disasters. And I realise many are in a more 'advanced' state than I am.

 

I've complained to Welcome about the inaccuracies on my CRAs and will take it up with the CRAs too - but that's a longer letter, as there are loads of mistakes on my CRAs. And I'll notify the FOS and ICO.

 

I'm in a real bind with my non cooperative scanner. Will keep struggling with it. The 'agreement' looks ok (has cost of credit, etc.) but I'm sure there must be an error or omission. And, I categorically did not sign this in a Welcome office. My big concern is that it's a SECURED loan.

 

Anyway, huge thanks for your input! MX

[IainHL]

a copy of a an unwitnessed Legal Charge

I believe that is your killer piece of paper. As far as I am aware an unwitnessed legal charge would render the whole secured loan agreement ineffective.

 

In response to my letter challenging the legibility of my agreement, Welcome responded with a letter that simply types in the Key Financial Information in large font in the letter. The total cost of credit is £2,000 more than double the amount borrowed (!). I’ve written back and said these figures are irrelevant, as this information must be included in the actual and LEGIBLE agreement.

The relevant regulation (which I can find for you if you need it) states that copies of agreements supplied in response to a CCA1974 s.77 request must be legible. The fact that it isn't is sufficient for you to put the account into dispute.

[Martel]

IainHL, thanks so much for this - you are confirming what my untrained eye suspected, i.e., what good is an unwitnessed legal charge??

 

The current legibility of the 'agreement' is suspect but i think Welcome may be able to refine the copy and make it legible. Am curious about what THAT might reveal!

 

Again, thanks for your input! MX

[postggj]

evening martel

 

just one question

 

this is a secured loan

all loans under 25k come under the cca 1974

anything over 25k would be a second mortage

 

now as this is a secured loan and not a mortage

 

HAS WELCOME ON THE AGREEMENT INCLUDED

MORTAGE INDEMNITY FEE

 

MAKE MY DAY

 

SAY YES

[Martel]

Post! I am honored to have you on my thread but I hate to disappoint you....I got my magnifying glass out and can see ZERO is after 'Mortgage indemnity Fee'. There is only an acceptance fee of £235.00.

 

I am going to PM you..hope you don't mind! MX

[Martel]

Foolish me to think your mailbox could handle another PM!

 

Anyway, today I rec'd from Welcome's 'Customer Service, Customer Complaints Dept.', in which they enclose a 'true copy of your credit agreement, in legible format'. It is a HUGE copy of the agreement (about twice the size of A4) which is hard to read but might pass for legible in a court of law.

 

The letter continues:

 

'We would comment that this saitsfies our obligations under s.77 CCA, Regulations 3(1) of the CCA (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983, and recent guidance from the OFT. We would refer you to the relevant sections of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983, and point out that there may be omitted from the true copy:

 

a. any information relating to the debtor, hirer or surety;

b. any signature box, signature or date of signature;

c. the name and address of debtor or hirer

 

We would also remind you that a 'true copy' as referred to at s.77 CCA need not be an exact copy, but must contain every material provision (Burchill v Thompson [1920] 2KB 80).

 

We would further advise you that this wa confirmed in the judgement given in Basil & Amanda Rankine v HFC etc [2009] CCLR 3, which was a high court case, and therefore remains binding.

 

Consequently we consider that we have complied with out obligations under s.77 CCA'

 

Yikes!! Am I going to be the only person in the entire kingdom to possess an legitimate Welcome agreement??!!

 

I have yet to receive a response to my letter querying their pathetic response to my SAR.

 

Might the facts that I didn't sign the agreement on Welcome premises and that there does not seem to be a witnessed legal charge on the property invalidate Welcome's assertion that the agreement is enforceable??

 

I'm not able to interpret the legalese in today's Welcome letter and would appreciate comments in its validity.

 

Thanks!!! MXXX

[postggj]

hi martel

 

pure rollocks from welcome as usual

 

they have given you a made up agreement to comply with your cca request

 

BUT TO ENFORCE

 

THEY NEED THE ORIGINAL

 

THE RANKINE JUDGEMENT STINKS

 

DCA TRIED THAT ONE FOR A WHILE

[MandM]

Hi Martel.

 

This is beyond me but pretty sure some help will appear.

 

Couple of questions though.........

 

 

a copy of a an unwitnessed Legal Charge, Do you have the original of this and if so, is it also unsigned?

 

an unsigned Default Notice on blank stationery Do you have the original of this?

 

 

M

[postggj]

Any ChaNce Of A Site Team Comment On This One

 

Welcome Seem To Be Getting More And More Desperate Resorting To This Fiction

Edited December 5, 2009 by postggj

[postggj]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/236641-oft-lenders-must-not.html

 

I THINK WELCOME NEED SOME EDUCATION

[Martel]

Dear Post and MandM,

 

Huge thanks for your replies. I will dig through my files and see what I have, probably by tomorrow night.

 

Again, enormous thanks for your support. I so appreciate it.

 

Best,

Martel xx

[Martel]

hi martel

 

pure rollocks from welcome as usual

 

they have given you a made up agreement to comply with your cca request

 

BUT TO ENFORCE

 

THEY NEED THE ORIGINAL

 

THE RANKINE JUDGEMENT STINKS

 

DCA TRIED THAT ONE FOR A WHILE

 

Hi Post,

 

I so LOVE your confidence.

 

Am wondering if you received what I sent you?

 

Will come up with answers fro MandM as soon as I can.

 

Best,

Martel xxx

[Martel]

Hi Martel.

 

This is beyond me but pretty sure some help will appear.

 

Couple of questions though.........

 

Quote:

 

Originally Posted by Martel

 

a copy of a an unwitnessed Legal Charge, Do you have the original of this and if so, is it also unsigned?

 

an unsigned Default Notice on blank stationery Do you have the original of this?

M

 

 

 

M

 

I cannot find any original of the unwitnessed Legal Charge. The one that has recently been sent to me is undated and doesn't have my customer number on it. It DOES have my undated signature on it. There are no witness signatures. On the reverse of this copy is a DD mandate, on Welcome headed paper. There is no start date and my signature is dated 18th Jan 200_. I've also found a copy of Statement of Price - payment breakdown, signed by me and dated January 2008. Am assuming this doesn't strengthen my position?

 

I've found the original DN, dated July 2008 and signed by the Branch Manager. The copy of the unsigned DN which has recently been sent to me is dated the same but unsigned.

 

I've also come across a letter that Welcome accidentally sent me last year that was addressed to another Welcome client and includes details about their arrears, balance, address, etc., for what it's worth.

 

Huge thanks for all your help,

 

MX

[MandM]

Hello,

 

i have seen that your in trouble with a secured loan! If you do need advice on removing your loan or perhaps reducing loan, or even to make payments cheaper per month please dont hesitate to contact me, i am an Independent Financial advisor and would gladly listen to you if there is anything you need to ask! I will tyy my best to come up with a solution and deal with it. Please contact me if you are in need at help.

 

Kind Regards

 

Finance........take a hike........post reported!

 

M

[Martel]

M! Thanks for your swift and bold response!! MX

[postggj]

what did i miss

 

a claims tout ???

[MandM]

what did i miss

 

a claims tout ???

 

He he. He's left us now and gone to a better place. Bless him father, for he knows not what he does lol

 

M

[IainHL]

Yes, they may very well have satisfied their obligations under "s.77 CCA, Regulations 3(1) of the CCA (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983, and recent guidance from the OFT". However, as post says, they do need the original should they ever decide to take you to court.

 

I would go back ot that undated, unwitnessed legal charge. It is my understanding that for a secured loan that is an intrinsic part of the agreement. So without a properly executed legal charge they don't have an agreement. We could do with getting one of the experts to confirm that for you.