10 mth old Corgi (in season) keeps attacking my 9 yr old dog advice wanted please!!!

[slgsue]

Hi all, I have a 10 mth old corgi bitch and a 9 yr old male mongrel (lovely, placid, couldn't want a better dog!!!). My corgi keeps going for my male dog Oscar. We know that she is in season and has been for about a week. We plan to have her spade when we can and hope that helps things.

 

She is never agressive to me or my children just poor Oscar. I have contacted a behaviourist who has advised me to keep them separated when alone whilst she is in season but this behaviour scares me and the kids and also Oscar. She never goes for him when my husband is home and I can get her off him without being hurt or even growled at by her.

 

If anyone can give any advice I would appreciate it. I love both my dogs and do not want to give up on her just yet.

[gertie58]

Get her spade as soon as possible

[jackieandwayne]

This is a behavioural problem in the making and you need to check this behaviour before madam gets much older. Fair enough its difficult whilst she is in season, and I know you have to get that out of the way before you can get her spade.

 

However, if this behaviour continues after the season, you have to treat it as aggression.

 

From your short post you have told me quite a lot!

 

Point one - no problem when hubby is around - well, no she wouldn't dare she has respect for him. What does hubby do that is different? I'll bet you he's the one who treats her as a dog and not a human (and we all do it!).

 

Point 2 = the behaviour scares me and the children. Now be honest, arent you ALWAYS thinking there might be a fight when they are together? Always on your guard even subconciously? Madam is picking up on this and you have to consider seriously that the cause of the problem may be you. I don't mean this in an unkind way either, its such a common problem. You and the kids need to adopt the attitude that it is your home and this behaviour will not happen. Its a mix of firmness and kindness, never anger or fear.

 

Without seeing the dogs I would say its the usual scenario of feisty young dog trying her luck already at being top dog, because she knows that Oscar is quite old - this is natural and oscar will eventually snap and put her in her place. And really, its Oscar who needs to do this as well as you guys. This little lady can learn so much from Oscar so its vital she settles down and gets on with it as soon as possible.

 

I'll give you two very good tips/tricks to begin rehabbing this little tyke, see how you get on with these and post back to say how you are getting on.

 

Mealtimes: always feed Oscar first, let him take as long as he wants, and let the little one see this. This means you have to make her lay down (submissive) at a respectable distance from oscar, on a lead. She mustn't show any interest in Oscar's food, she has to accept she is lower down in the pack than him, therefore she eats second. You will find the word or noise to check her with (don't use a rattle bottle unless a professional has physically assessed her) and you have to be firm. You are teaching her that unless she submits to Oscar she won't get fed, but if she is good and behaves then she has earnt her meal. Don;t feed her anything until Oscar has finished. Then she can have her food. The same applies to all those naughty treats we give them - Oscar first, then madam.

 

Walks, does she pull and surge ahead? If so, she thinks she's in charge of you when you are out. This has to stop, as well as if she barks or reacts badly to other dogs when you are out. I use a very fine check chain (its actually a show chain from petcetera and would seem quite useless for our purposes but I use it on headstrong border collies and I've never had one snap yet). Other trainers may well disagree with me, but I believe the quickest way of achieving obedience and control outdoors on the lead is with head control. I'm not going to tell you how to use it, because you need to be shown, but if you can find a good reliable dog whisperer in your area, they will gladly show you. With such a young dog you will only need one or two sessions, and I expect the Kennel Club might recommend someone for you.

 

Anyway, see how you go on with these tips. One thing that concerned me, when you said your children were scared, you must make sure that if a dog fight starts everyone stays calm, because shouting and screaming will fuel the fight. And at 10 months old she is easy to pull off oscar, but this little bugger is bigger than her boots, if she can attack Oscar because she has no respect, she can attack any of you for the same reason.

 

You'll get this sorted, but do try a proper dog whisperer - its great fun! All of a sudden you can talk to your dog in a language he understands!

[slgsue]

Thats the plan but have been told today that I cant do it for about 3 months after her season. Have thought about buying a cage to put her in for the couple of hours we are all out and at night just to keep Oscar safe but personally dont like the idea of cages.

[slgsue]

Jackieandwayne thank you so much. What you have said seems to fit the bill perfectly!!!! We feed them separatly but will start feeding oscar first with sox on her lead watching him as you have suggested. Oscar bless him seems to just let her get her own way and not react!!!

 

My hubby certainly treats her like a dog and shows Oscar much more love than her and when he tells her to stay she will!!!

 

When we are out on walks unless hubby is there I take them separately as she seems to attack him when we are out, almost like she is missing out on something!!!! I have let her be a "lap dog" if I am honest but think that has something to do with having been given her by my uncle just after my nans funeral, sounds a bit sad but kind of see her as a bit of a memory!!!!

 

My vets have recommended a "trainer" and after speaking to her I will get her round after season.

[jackieandwayne]

Glad to be able to help you. If you can tolerate him, watch some Cesar Milan, The Dog Whisperer. The other one to watch is Robert Aleyn on Dog Borstal. I know they make it look simple, but these guys are both very much what you call "alpha" people.

 

I've taught dogs obedience and "tricks" for years, but I've always known that studying their behaviour is the right way to go. I'm now learning with a genuine dog whisperer, well practising, I know what needs to be done, it's just a matter of finding my own style, which you will do as well.

You will have to treat this like weight watchers, its a change for life!

 

When Sox has learned a bit of respect, its vital that you socialise her properly, she needs to know how to greet other dogs. After 12 months of age, get her onto a local agility course, and YOU take her, not hubby (and oscar too, he can enjoy it as well) - you'll quickly form a very strong bond with her, then you'll get the true respect you must have. (And keep fit because you have to run as well!)

 

Post up any more little problems as you go along and I'll help if I can.

 

Goodluck

[slgsue]

I thought I would give you a quick update. We took your advice jackieandwayne regarding the feeding issue immediately, my DH found it hilarious and it already seems to be working. This evening I was able to feed Oscar first with Sox sat next to me and ..................... no lead!!!!!! Ok I did have to stop her a couple of times from trying to eat his food but she is seeming to respond to me with a little respect.

 

The other advice that I was given from the dog behaviourist was to stop her sitting with me on the furniture like it was her god given right and only to allow her if she was invited. This also seems to be working, only once today has she tried to jump on the sofa, I did call her up for a cuddle yesterday though as I miss them

 

Throughout the weekend we had no incidents where she went for Oscar but my DH was home. Last night she went for him once but I took her out of the room and put her in our utility room for 10 minutes. When she came back she did seem to be trying to instigage but I used a very firm voice and just said "Sox No!" probably twice on each occassion but that was it.

 

I actually feel quite excited about what we will be able to do with the dogs and will definately look into an agility course that sounds like my cup of tea and great fun!!!!

 

Will keep you posted but so far so good xxx

[jackieandwayne]

This is good, very good, I'm so pleased you are cracking the problem.

 

It sounds that you have found a good behaviourist. She's right, of course the dog can sit on your bed, settee - if YOU want her to.

 

If you want to test Sox's intelligence, a simple trick is to catch her attention, and give her the biggest brightest smile you can. If she responds to you just because of the smile and nothing else, you have a bright one there.

 

If you want her to know that Oscar is to be fully respected as top dog, and if you feel brave enough, next time she has a go, say nothing, get up immediately, pull her off if you have to, and push her down on her side, head away from Oscar. Hold her firmly down by the neck (you'll have seen her go for Oscars neck/throat area so you know what I mean). Now you are correcting her behaviour in a way that she can't fail to understand - because these are the ways her mother taught her when she was a puppy and is pure doggy talk. Hold her down and let Oscar near, encourage him to sniff at her behind (disgusting beasts aren;t they?). You, as pack leader are forcing her to submit and therefore respect you, and showing Oscar that you can and will protect him to. She'll soon learn. Don;t talk to her whilst this is going on, and never, once you have started, stop the exercise, because if you do she has won. You should physically feel the tension go out of her, let her up, if she goes again, straight back down on the floor with her. This is not cruel and you are not hurting her, so if she cries, take no notice, that is just her answering you back. Don't put your face near her either, if she gets into a rage she might nip you. She won't like you doing this, no dog does, because they know exactly what it means. Therefore she will have a choice - do what is upsetting mum and be put in my place, or stop it.

 

I wouldn't normally tell someone to do this without seeing the dog, but she is quite a manageable size and I'm sure you'll be fine. This is for you and your husband to do really, its up to you how you feel about teaching the children - best to see how she reacts to you first. And after the incident, well, that's it done and dusted, no need to talk to her about it, or tell her off, she'll have forgotten why you did it, but she'll never forget that you can.

 

So, there's your next exercise - putting Sox in her place just as another dog would do.

 

So many people think that dog whispering is a fad, but its not at all, old Cesar has just managed to glorify it in recent years. Its not magic, you can't of course hold a conversation with your dogs, but if you study their behaviour, and read up a bit on what wild dogs are like in a pack, you'll be laughing in a few months - probably laughing every time you see the neighbour being dragged down the road by his yorkie! Cos of course, Sox will not be behaving like that will she?!

 

Let me know if I can help further.

 

I'm happy to advise anyone with behavioural problems in dogs, but would also advise you to let a professional look at your dog as well, because I can't see for myself. There are two main types of dog aggression and the dog needs to be seen in action to determine what the problem is. Mostly its fear aggression, and I believe that all dogs can be rehabbed, but you do get the odd dog that is dominant aggressive and that's a different thing again.

[skonk]

Some excellent advice given there, and it's good to see someone who knows what they're talking about, and saying you should also see a professional is correct.

 

There was one thing you mentioned, and I could be wrong, but it may possibly be another factor in the aggression. you said,"My hubby certainly treats her like a dog and shows Oscar much more love than her". Sox may pick up on this and be attacking to both get your attention and pay as much, if not, more attention to her, plus, it's pack mentality. Sox could be challenging oscar for his position in the pack, as from what i can see it's Dad, Oscar, Sox.

 

All the humans in the house need to be seen as pack leader. I do have to agree with the post about, if you and the kids are scared, the dog picks up on that, and uses it. It's really difficult though, to be able to change the way you are, but believe me, it does work.

 

I'd just like to add as well, when you feed the dogs, do they just have dried food? I always mix it with my hands when I feed my dog, just so she gets my scent on her food. I have a rottweiler, and you would not believe the control I have over her food! I can take a bone off her anytim, and she makes no growl or noise whatsoever. I taught her this from a pup.

 

Good luck and I hope it goes well for you! You really do need to stick it out though! It's hard going, and my god, really grinds you down, but you will see the change and be so much happier. And so will Oscar!

[jackieandwayne]

That's an interesting point you make Skonk about jealousy. What I would say about jealousy in dogs is this - jealously is a purely human trait. If we look at a pack of dogs it just does not happen - what we may see as jealousy - ie., a scrap over a piece of food, is not, its dominance and pecking order, nothing else.. But then if you look at the poor little Yorkie with the ribbon in her hair and the pompom jacket, who sits on mum's lap all day being fed morsels, and then snaps at anyone who comes near her, you could say that was jealousy. Its certainly not a nice trait, but I still don't think its jealousy per se. And whatever it is, its been taught by a human!

 

And Skonk, rotties, dobies, alsations, even pit bulls, everyone of them is adorable! They are only what the owners make then into. And actually I'd be more concerned about being attacked by a jack russel type, than any of the so called dangerous big breeds. You try getting one of those buggers off your leg - you could invent a whole new song and dance in the time it can take!

[gemspan]

Hi there#

 

I'm a trained dog behaviourist and would suggest that you get this checked out with a behaviourist BEFORE you start any behaviour modification programme.

 

There are many people who say they are behaviourists when in fact they have completed a correspondence course. There is no good behaviourist that will give advice on what is happening over a telephone or over the internet - without first meeting the dogs and looking at the environment within which they live.

 

I would suspect that your bitch's hormones are all over the place and it is perfectly normal for a bitch to reject a dog when in season - unless she is actually ovulating. Hormones in bitches, just like humans, play a huge part in behaviour.

 

I would strongly suggest that you contact a qualified dog behaviourist who practices modern behaviour modification methods not based on pack theory which is based on flawed science.

 

Sensationalist tv progrmmes are not the way to go. What you see in an hour on tv has probably taken weeks - even months - to correct. A behaviour is learned and therefore has to be unlearned. It is harder to unlearn a behaviour than to learn it - think of smoking!!!

 

You have to make sure your children are protected - first and foremost. By feeding the other dog first you are upsetting the hierarchy. Your bitch is developing and becoming an adult. The chances are that she will become top dog between the two. What she is doing just now is testing the boundaries - every puppy will do it with a dog they live with.

 

Contrary to popular belief. Dogs do not see us as dogs. I have 4 dogs and they all get fed at the same time. By feeding the other dog first you stand to make things worse in the long run. A trained behaviourist is the way to go.

 

I'm not convinced that this is the best place to look for behavioural advice as this is a consumer website. There are many websites specifically for dogs - champdogs, animalbehaviour.com. These are just a few.

 

I wish you luck but often what we see as aggression is pushing the boundaries and resource guarding. If you can't see what is sparking it off you can't give the correct advice.

 

I'm by no means belittling the advice you have been given above. Some of it is very good indeed. However, where any form of aggression is involved you should always seek the advice of a "trained" beahviourist.

 

try The Association of Pet Dog Trainers. Also COAPE.

 

Just search on google.

 

Good luck

Gemspan

[skonk]

Wise words there, gemspan. As you say, some good advice is in th eposts above, but totally agree with you when you say, seek a professional. Although many people, myself included, have good knowledge of dogs mentality/pack/psychology, whatever you want to call it, I totally agree with you when you say tv shows are not the way to go. yes, it's good to watch and gives you ideas of what COULD be wrong with your dog, but obviously you have to use your brain and understand you're not an expert.

 

The things I've learnt have been through books, and from the lady who looks after my dog when we go away. She's fully trained, with certificates, etc. and even she says not to 100% do what they do on tv. I think a lot of people use the shows as a "quick fix" for their dog. As you say, it's probably taken them weeks or months to get the dog trained correctly.

 

We have to be careful when giving advice out on public forums. I think a few things ok, like the treat in your hand and close your fist when the dog goes for the treat, to teach them to wait, is an ok thing to tell someone about, but even then, we don't know the dog's temprament, so that's something else which is a small thing, but still a small thing to ask a professional about.

[gemspan]

Hi again

 

I would never want to discredit any information that somebody gives but the problem is that we don't know the dog; it's being aggressive and the OP is frightened about her children. If they are seeing effects at the moment it is probably because the dog is confused.

 

I really don't think that this is the place to be giving behavioural advice. I could probably pinpoint what is happening but it's not professional to do so on the internet when aggression is concerned.

 

I have a huge problem with TV programmes. I was out the other day with my dogs and met a guy with a bulldog and a staffy. My little cocker wandered over to say hello and he started pointing at him and making the sound that Caesar Milan makes. Of course my cocker thought he was playing because I don't train my dogs that way. He wondered what was going on. I called him back and, after all that, the guy went off in a different direction after causing all the fuss!! TV programmes are not the way to go. Good, reputable behaviourists really don't follow that viewpoint.

 

Dogs are not wolves, just like we are not chimpanzees (although we share 99% of our genes with them and one could question the behaviour in some high streets at the weekend LOL). We have domesticated them to do our bidding and work with us.

 

I recommend good, reputable behaviourists that use kind, positive reinforcement. If somebody tells me to eat before my dog I would walk away - because in the wild the weak and young eat before the alphas - hence I am making myself bottom of the pack if I were to follow that theory.

 

Its a shame that pack theory hasn't gone away eg Caesar Milan and Victoria Stillwell, Jan Fennell because dog behaviour has come a long way since then. Good books to read are The Culture Clash and Dogs by Coppinger. This explains things very clearly. Some of it is hard going at times but the general information is there!!

 

I hope everything works out!

 

Kind regards

Gemspan

[jackieandwayne]

Gemspan, I accept that all dog trainers have their own ways, and of course, their own beliefs. I can only judge myself by the successes I've had with dogs who would otherwise just be put to sleep because they are "aggressive". And I do believe most strongly in the pack theory, because that is all I've ever known and seen for myself, right from a toddler. But there are many excellent handlers/trainers out there, who don't use these natural methods and have just as much success.

 

I am confident in what I teach people (I never take payment, and I don;t think I ever would - a tin of choccies after the last training class at Xmas is different!). I firmly believe that most dog problems are caused by humans not understanding what they actually have as their new best friend. I take my friends to rescue centres (we have far too many here sadly) when they want a dog and I help them AND their children choose a suitable dog, based on where they live, and what they do as a family, and also what ability and dedication is in the family. I explain to them that this dog they have chosen has already lost one home, 9 times out of 10 the shelter won't tell you why, because if they did you probably wouldn't take the dog. I then advise them how to introduce the animal into their home, begin the rehab process, and at the end they will have a happy dog. I am also big enough to say to them, if they have a dog that is not suitable for them, that they either need to alter their lives a bit to accommodate the dog and his needs, or they get a less active breed that is more suitable. I will then take it upon myself (with the help of my friend) to rehome the unsuitable dog sensibly. For the friends that choose to keep their pet (and so far only 2 have had to rehome again with my help - their fault, not the dog) I teach them to watch the dogs general behaviour and how to be around him until they have all bonded and the animal knows its place. I insist they come to the agility class with me, and I'm just assembling a fly ball team, looking for one more aggressive border collie please - male or female. It will learn to be a pack member and win me a rosette! I take them out on walks with me and my boy (who was a problem border who actually bit me, so yes he got put straight down on the floor for that - he's never done it again, never will either.) so we can correct any bad behaviour around other dogs they may come across. I insist that all children, whatever age, come with us, and you can be sure that my main priority is seeing how that dog is with children. I teach the dog that he is the lowest in the pack, that all humans are above him. It has to be I'm afraid, because that is how it is. Don;t mean we can;t love them and fuss them, but first of all they have to know their place.

 

When I tell people to watch Cesar, or any of the TV trainers, I only ask them to do that so they can see how you should be around a dog - I make it very clear that the problems he deals with are extreme, and i only want them to see how calm he is at all times, even if he has been bitten. I also admire Robert Alleyn, because of the way he just laughs at owners, and puts them right, but also because of the way he sits them down and explains about the DDA and the consequences of having an out of control dog. My friend actually goes to the magistrates court on a fairly regular basis when some damn fool owner has let their dog cause an incident, and she sticks up for the dog, promises to rehab both dog and owner, and so far she has managed to save every dog she has had to represent in this way. Its my turn shortly - now that does make me a bit nervous to be honest, but I will do my best to turn the situation around in the Court, and I most definitely will then rehab this naughty dog and the owner.

 

And myself? Well, I was brought up mainly by my grandparents, granddad was a highly respected dog handler in the army and right from when i was a toddler I have been surrounded by dogs, parents today would shudder, but grandad kept dogs that needed rehabbing in our kennels sometimes, and he thought nothing of leaving me out there as a tot, with these dogs. I had no fear of them, and he explained to me that this was why I had no problem with them. He told me they were to be respected and admired, and above all were man's best friend. I still have no fear of any animal today, learning from him, and then later my own dad who carried the rehabbing on after grandad passed away. However, my mother is an animal lover, but not as fearless as me and dad, so when she enters the kennels she can easily cause a bit of a ruccus, just by being slightly unsure.

 

Today, I will happily help anyone who has a problem dog (or thinks they have) but I do it my way, the old way (which Cesar has now glorified and he still doesn't get it quite right - prong collars for example which I loathe). I specialise in Border Collies, my great love in the dog world, one of the breeds that can have so many problems simply because they can and do think for themselves, and they don't always get it right. I would be more concerned to hear that a border collie was aggressive, than say a rottweiller or alsation. Because of the speed of any attack they make on you, and that certainty they have that they are 100% correct! I just adore this breed, its like moulding plasticine if you get it right. Get it wrong though and you could be spending 12 months trying to correct it.

 

I help my friend who is a "Dog Whisperer" but she is also a highly respected KC judge. She is also an extremely alpha person, who commands respect just by speaking. I can deal with aggressive dogs and put them right because I've grown up to this, she does it because its what she wants to do, and those dogs are just going to bloody well do it! Sadly she's not what you'd call a people person, this is why she asked me to help, because i appear to be a bit more sympathetic to owners who haven't a clue! I can only tell them that if they are afraid of their dog, the relationship has to change today, or he has to be rehomed before further damage is done. It is up to them if they listen.

 

I see no harm in putting a fiesty young pup in its place, kindly, and in a way it will understand. If we don't do this from the start, we can get problems - such as fighting with other dogs, putting everyone at risk around them, especially children. I'm pleased to say that having to use my special technique on a dog is rare, its used in extreme cases, and I would never tell anyone to try this on a large and angry dog, I would advise that they are kennelled for a set period with a professional dog handler, and that the owners are then trained so that they have the confidence they need to handle a large breed. Is it not better that your feisty dog knows without a doubt that you can and will put him in his place if he attacks? Better by far that he knows you are the leader, he doesn't have to bother with decisions, he just gets to have a lovely calm doggy life, with an owner who adores him, and who he respects.

 

Anyway. rather lengthy post, but I feel very strongly about this subject, and the dogs I am helping to rehab at the moment are all on their last chance, hence why I feel so strongly. Because, just inch by inch, day by day, I can see the aggressive behaviour being corrected and a lovely dog emerging, Also when I have an outright turnaround success, I hope I've saved another child from a facial injury, another owner from being scarred for life or just simply an entire family, the utmost heartbreak when they realise they've taken on the wrong dog and now have a rather unpleasant choice to make. Look chaps, most of us humans can't cope with this fast pace in life, how on earth can we expect some of our dogs not to have problems with it too? Do you know, last week I met with a lovely family with a rescue border - they'd had him for 8 weeks and they could not use the FF of their house because he guarded it and flew at them if they came up the stairs! They assure me they love the dog (that's part of the problem I think too much affection too soon) and want to work to give him the life he should have. But can you imagine, the risk of having your throat ripped out whenever you needed a pee or wanted to go to bed? And you would be surprised just how many people live like this, to a certain extent. I shall be showing young Alfie exactly how he is going to be for the rest of his life, starting on Friday this week. He might be my fourth border for my team!

 

But the most important message I believe, is, if you think you have a problem, get a professional in immediately. And you have many choices of trainer out there, many different ways of rehabbing, training, just teaching fun tricks, and you must find the course that is right for you and your dog, and one that you feel comfortable with. Just be careful, word of mouth is better by far. There are all too many people springing up in the local papers as "Dog Whisperers", charging anything up to £100 an hour.

 

And all the celebrity dog trainers out there? Well, yes, they all have their own ways, their own successes and if you think you have a problem dog, as well as getting help quickly, you should read as much as you can, and make up your own mind on the best way to communicate with your dog. This is the way for me as I've never known anything else, but I do understand that my way is not for everyone, and in any case i generally deal with the most aggressive dogs who otherwise are just going to die.

 

I'd love for this discussion to go on, all of us have help and advice to offer, not only to people having problems, but to each other. Now Gemspan, would you believe that, whilst I might be able to put an aggressive hound in its place, one of the most basic things I struggle with is getting a dog to walk to heel on the lead (I mean willingly - head control is simple). I can teach any border to walk calmly beside me, behind me, off the lead, but I'd love to hear your tips for this most basic of training! Its because I'm used to dogs being free in a secure area, and dealing with them that way I think! I've had success by using a very long rope, and tricking the dog into thinking it is being restrained, when in fact I've dropped the rope and he's still by my side! I find with young borders, they are so hyped up when going for a walk that any food treat they are offered is refused. Not always, but I have picked this out as a particular problem -"mum, I don;t want bloody food - I want to run free!" So, any tips?

 

Lets keep this thread going.