@natwest_help NatWest Iressponsible lending - HELP PLEASE new develpements

[ieuanMr]

Thanks for input Pompey and Gazz

 

He has not paid compound interest, he has paid their interest charges immediately.

 

So let's start again:

 

1. has anyone successfully claimed restitutionary damages?

2. if they have please explain how to do it?

3. How do I fill in N1?

4. What is the point of getting more than 6 years of statements if we can only claim 6 years maximum?

5. I know I can get simple interest easily

6. How do I claim restitutionary damages, on what grounds?

 

Anyone?

 

Ieuan

[ieuanMr]

If anyone is interested in calculating interest this is how I do it, it is intended for working out back interest owed for say a period of 84 months and you have different amount or charges over that period owing to you. You are reclaiming the charges for some legal reason and now you want to claim the statutary interest on a monthly basis.

 

If anyone want an view of an example then e-mail me and I will e-mail back a spreadsheet.

 

You can do it with a formula just as well, but if you are going to court it will print out nicely on a spreadsheet and there can't be any arguments then.

 

Ieuan

 

1st payment 84 months ago of £3.95 owing to you, the calculation for the interest is for 84 periods at 8%/12 (0.08/12) time the amount time 84=

Use a spreadsheet thus:

amount date months constant interest

£3.95 date 84 (.08/12) £2.212

£8.96 date 83 (.08/12) £4.9579

 

set your spreasheet to 4 decimal places and use the currency mode if you like.

The advantage of the colums is they are easily added up in Works in seperate columns of principle then interest. If you have different columns for charges, and interest just add two columns it the same calculation with the same constant and the same number of months.

[gaz2006]

Thanks for input Pompey and Gazz

Okay see my comments marked with * if no answer then dont wnat to give you wrong info

 

 

He has not paid compound interest, he has paid their interest charges immediately.

 

So let's start again:

 

1. has anyone successfully claimed restitutionary damages? ***type in wordin search on CAG and see and also "damages " for instance

2. if they have please explain how to do it?

3. How do I fill in N1?

4. What is the point of getting more than 6 years of statements if we can only claim 6 years maximum? ********** you can claim back more than 6 years if you can prove Limitation Act 1980 doesnt apply due to S32 it can get complicated

5. I know I can get simple interest easily *** do you mean 8% ie court or interest you have been charged ie their rate ?

6. How do I claim restitutionary damages, on what grounds? **** damge to credit passing debt on to 3rd parties when have no authority etc using moen you werent entitled to to make profits etc doesnt lok lik ethose apply does it ? List isnt endless but not sure of other reasons

 

Regards Gaz

[pompeyfaith]

to get restitutionary damages u have to prove that they made a profit on money that was gained on a financial wrong so firstly u have to prove those charges are a wrong

[gezwee]

Still can't find the thread I was thinking of for PPI opt out......do remember that the FSA were extremely unflattering in their reporting of store and credit card issuers having a prefilled opt in application and this has now ceased (as far as I'm aware).

 

Restitutionary interest is a difficult subject, as PF says, you would need to evidence that the bank have profited to x value by relieving you of monies not owed.

 

It may be far more expedient to seek refund of premiums + contractual interest + statutory simple interest at 8% per annum.

 

You will of course get a 'please go away' response to your initial request, keep pressing and you'll get a partial offer, press further and you'll get a final response. Its at that point that you can elect to try the FOS or send in the LBA and start the court process. You may be lucky and have an offer for the full amount but Natwest are not known for their generosity or efficiency in resolving such matters.

[ieuanMr]

The reason I ask about restitutionary damages is because this site is now advocating we apply for it. The idea of restitutionary damages is that if the banks made a profit for the past 6 years then my son's money has been used to generate those profits. I don't have to prove that, it is a fact as long as his claim is right, i.e.they cannot take his money from his account without having a properly executed agreement, as they don't have one then he have a just claim.

 

So they have used money from my son's account and made a profit therefore he is entitled to ask for restitutionary damages.

 

My question is :

1. has anyone on the site successfully claimed restitutionary damages?

2. if so how did they apporach the problem?

3. how to fill in form N1 to include it?

4. how to claim for more than 6 years?

 

 

ieuan

p.s. Gezwee, the pre-ticked option on PPI may have stopped but this agreement goes back 7 years.

[pompeyfaith]

ieuanMr,

 

Restitutionary Damages is another avenue Bankfodder advised us all on, at the moment I know no more than you.

 

I too was hoping that BF would expand on this subject, but I guess at the moment he is busy with the bank charges issue.

 

Have you tried searching the internet for info on this?

 

Regards

 

PF

[gezwee]

I suppose you could try a matched C.I rate in your poc...... havent attempted it myself except within bank charges reclaim which is now possibly defunct so will need a bit of a rethink.

 

The argument I used was based on their selling rate to 'other' customers, ie they have loaned my money to other current account holders with a return of 16%APR.

 

Hopefully someone with a win under their belt will come along soon and advise further.

[ieuanMr]

C.I.Rate?

[pompeyfaith]

= compound interest and/or contractual interest rate. .i.e the APR they charged you

[ieuanMr]

I see, thank you. No, compound interest does not apply to this account, he paid up imediatley so there was no compounding of interest.

[ieuanMr]

I read a book on 'A' level law this weekend, it is most difficult. I can't see how I have the skills to take this to court. There is so much money involved that the bank is bound to tie me up in legal knots and /or move it to the high court where I cannot possibly have th emoney to continue my action.

 

I recieved a long letter from a Customer Service Manager and the bank does seem to be addressing some of the issues regardig data. They are making noises about providing data for longer than the 6 years. Joyce E. Tudor's name comes up whenever statements are asked for, I supose she is the queen of all their statements. What I can't undertand is how they send letters saying they are following OFT guidlines in fallowing the 6 year rule and then agree to send the statement when you go higher up the chain.

 

NatWest are making a meal of this and abusing proceedure ruels in my opinion. The complaint proceedure is a way of identifying spurious claims from the bank's point of view and filltering them out without admitting anything. Why did HFC cough up after 3 letters and NatWest is still rattling off negative letters 4 months later?

 

IainHL, I checked up on the FSA website and they do take the Unfair Terms legislation very seriously and state that claims going back to 1995 are under the Unfair Terms. I think I have a way of challenging on the mortgage because of the unfair terms, they sold my son PPI and life assurance with the mortgage. I think they abused their status in suggesting these products because he had no chance to negotiate and they used undue influence in other words buy these products they are good for you and you have a better chance of getting a mortgage. They also sold him on Advatgae Gold at the same time. He did not need life assurance , he has no one to worry about and he certainly did not need PPI.

 

In any event they cannot find the mortgage agreements.

Edited December 7, 2009 by ieuanMr

[middenmess]

Hi Ieaun--I see that NW are still fluffing around with their responses.

 

Did you ever get around to checking this out?

On other threads I read about using The Bar Pro Bono Unit: Free Legal Advice and Representation

Is it possible that they --depending on your circumstances--could help you?

[middenmess]

For another example of NatWest efficiency..

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/234271-natwest-have-lost-my.html

[ieuanMr]

Thanks Middenmess, nice to hear from you again. I looked that site up and it is very complicated, and I will have to use a solicitor. I am concerned that I have to give them so much private details and then they might turn the case down.

 

I am planning to go to the court this week, but as soon as I do that I lose my right to use the ombudsman, and that worries me.

 

regards

 

 

Ieuan

[ieuanMr]

Schedule of communication with Bank and other parties relating to claims by xxxxxxxxxxxx against NatWest plc.

As of 20th November 2009

Letters/documents/schedules/meetings/telephone conversations, Reference xxxx -

 

• 20th August 2009 attends bank to advise branch of problems with fraud re:xxxxxx, xxx leaves a copy of memorandumgiven to xxxxxxx on the 19th August 2009.
  
• 26th August , xxx cancels 13 direct debits at branch. (no document)
  
• 26th August 2009 Letter from NatWest branch confirming appointment with Bank Ref: xxxxxxx.
  
• 1st Sept. Letter from Cards Customer services confirming cancellation of credit card (MasterCard) Ref: xxxxxxxxxx
  
• 3rd September Letter from Mortgage Operations reference: xxxxxxxxxxxx advising that the bank are unable to assist in providing relief from interest charges on mortgage
  
• 6th Sept. Letter to bank advising of the financial situation and that a complaint is being prepared by xxxxxxxx and advising that administration of xxxx’s affair is being handed over to xxxx (xxxxx’s father) also advising of alternate address (parent’s home)
  
• 11th September Letter to branch advising of problems with debt and fraud also advising that a complain is being prepared against the bank by xxxxxx. The letter confirms verbal information given to branch on the 20th August 2009
  
• 9th. Sept. Letter to bank advising on financial situation and why card was stopped also explaining of a possible complaint
  
• 10th Sept. Letter from Customer Accounts Consultant advising that DD has been cancelled and to make alternate way of paying Re Life Insurance
  
• 11Th Sept. Letter from of Customer services advising LTA Policy is about to end
  
• 11Th Sept. Letter to NatWest Home Insurance advising of financial situation and making complaint re: xxxxxxx
  
• 14th. Sept. Letter from, Regional Manager advising that the Mortgage Protector Policy has been cancelled Re: xxxxxxxxxxxx
  
• 15th September letter from NatWest from Customer Service Associate advising that Loan Protector Insurance on the fixed loan has been cancelled and payments reduce to £218.26 from £250.00. This should be reduced by £50.00 but because fo the way payment were scheduled we are still liable for payments of £18.00 for the duration of the agreement which seems unfair.
  
• 19th Sept. Letter to bank making complaint in detail (4 pages)
  
• 19th Sept. Letter from Customer Relations Manager advising that my letter and complaint of the 16th Sept. is being looked into and enclosing guide to NatWest Complaint’s Procedure
  
• 23rd Letter from Administrator of RBS, Regulatory Concerns team advising that he is unable to progress my general complaint without further details, encloses PPI Complaint Cover sheet
  
• 25th Sept. letter from Customer Accounts advising that we have not replied to their letter and that we are in default of the agreement ref xxxxxxxxxx and demanding a payment of £29.66 (house insurance)
  
• 30th Sept. Letter from Customers Services Manager acknowledging cancellation of house Insurance
  
• 30th Sept. letter from Customer Accounts consultant with balance of the account house insurance
  
• 30th. Sept. letter from Customer Accounts Clerk with statement of the account house insurance
  
• 30th Sept. We serve an SAR re: 10 products/services with NatWest
  
• 7th Oct. Re SAR, Request from bank of regulatory Risk asking for proof of identity
  
• 7th Oct. Letter from Customer Relations Department Re: xxxxxxxxx advising compliant is being investigated
  
• 11th Sept. 13th Oct. Proof of identity sent off to Bank
  
• 13th Oct. CCA Re: xxxxxxxxxxx Credit card (MasterCard)
  
• 13th Oct. CCA Re:xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Fixed Sum Loan Agreement
  
• 13th Oct. CCA Re: \mortgage a/c xxxxxxxxxxx and extra borrowing xxxxxxxxxxxx
  
• 14th Oct. Letter from bank enclosing credit card summary of statements showing no charges ref: xxxxxxxxxxxx
  
• 15th Oct. Letter to bank asking for details of Credit card statement but they have already been sent , complain that 6 years of bank statements is not enough
  
• 22 Oct. Letter from Senior Customer Advisor, Customer Management team advising that that they cannot accept Mrs.xxxxxxxxxxxxx signature for information. Surprised as mrs. xxxxxxxxx is a co-signatory to xxxx’s current account.
  
• 26th Oct. Letter from Documentation Advisory and Compliance team advising that it is not the bank’s practice to send further copies of standard documents nor further copies of statements re: Data Protection Act. But that they will send documents as under section 7 of the Act
  
• 27th Oct. Letter of Complaint re: PPI’s on xxx’s accounts and agreements with NatWest sent at RBS
  
• 27th Oct. Letter expressing surprise that signature refused and that xxxxxxxxx is still being used as correspondence address, later realise that Credit card regulations apply
  
• 30th Oct. Letter from of Customer Relations offering apology and compensation for error in calculating insurance premiums of £107.46 and giving 8 weeks to reply
  
• 2nd. Nov. CCA ‘In Dispute’ letter Re: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
  
• 2nd. Nov. CCA ‘In Dispute’ letter Re: xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  
• 5th Nov. Re: SAR 2nd letter to bank reminding bank of time scale and that manual intervention documents are required and data from archive system also to iterate request that documents and parcels be sent to parent’s address.
  
• 12th November My letter with schedule of complaints to NatWest.
  
• 12th Novembers 2009 from Mint Platinum Customer Service at Southend-on-Sea enclosing copy schedule of charges (none recorded) of credit card account back to opening of account.
  
• 13th November, Letter from NatWest Credit Card Operations at Southend-on-Sea refusing data on xxxxxxxxxx as there is no account number on the request, but all account s numbers were included in the SAR of the 30th Sept 2009. This from the GGA do nothing await SAR request of 30th Sept.
  
• 13th November SAR response’ a batch of statements of current account for last 6 years (which I already have) . I suspect that all these different departments are working blind on what they are doing. NatWest needs to centralise their operations or at least merge them on one database. Included is a copy of our 1st letter to branch of the 11thSeptember asking for 6 years of statements, the letter is stamped ‘received CRSU 18th September 2009’. Cheque for £3.00 returned re: CCA requests.
  
• 14th November My letter to NatWest 3rd letter extending time for SAR for 14 days.
  
• 14th November letter received on the 20th from Customer Relations Manager recognising our complaint letter of 12 Nov.
  
• 14 Nov.xxxxx Telephone xxxxxxxxxxx and spoke at length about our compliant, happy to speak to me.
  
• 17th November Claim letter for bank charges for 6 years on current account, unable to complete claims as embarrassed without further statements going back to 1995. Warning of legal action.
  
• 17 November letter from RBS returning my documents and complaint of the 27th Oct. Received here on 20th Nov. of administration RBS informs us that our documents have been returned because the address does not conform to their records.
  
• 19th Nov.Lett. to NatWest Reg office.POA
  
• 20th Nov. letter from , Customer Services Associate of NatWest explaining that CCA (13Th Oct.) re £17K loan is not available and cannot be found. Due on 10 Nov. 10 days late. CCA’s were returned to us the data is actionable on our SAR of 30th Sept.
  
• 23rd Nov. letter from of administration RBS advising that they are taking our PPI complaint very seriously[sic] Copy of complaints procedure enclosed. Rec. 26th Nov.
  
• 23rd Nov. Letter from Senior Centre Manager NatWest. Rec. 26th Nov. Detailed response and explanation of the Charges complaint going through the courts . Very good letter and helpful!
  
• 23rd Nov. Letter from Customer Service Officer returning our POA document and letter and advising us of Banks procedure. The letter to the registered office returned.
  
• 24th Nov. letter from Documents and Advisory and Compliance Team, NatWest. Special delivery with copies of mortgage, He advises that original mortgage offer is lost. This is in response of my SAR of the 30th Sept.
  
• 25Th Nov. xxxx Telephoned Bank but refused a connection by operator as they do not recognise my POA status xxx.
  

[ieuanMr]

I gave the bank 14 days grace on the SAR on the 14th Nov. and that time is up. I told them in my letter that if after 14 days I had not seen the executed agreement that I would take action 14 days after that without reference to the bank in the county court. Now having said I would I will have to trot along to the local county court and do just that, else they will think I am all hot air.

 

I must say, I am nervous about it but I have discussed it with my son and we realise we are completly inexperiecned in these sort of matters but it will be for limited damages and under the £5000 threshhold and all we are asking the court to do is to demand the presentation of executable agreements under the terms of the Data Protection Act 1998.

 

Our risk is limited to £30 and if we lsoe this is what it will cost us. So I am off to the local court to find out about procedure. Please wish me well.

 

 

Ieuan

[middenmess]

I might be getting confused with reading many threads but haven't NW already confirmed that they haven't got the agreement that you seek?

 

If so what will going to court achieve?

 

I think that the N1 form is available to download from the CAG library but a trip to the court might well give you further info regarding such a claim and all knowledge is power.

 

I look forward to the next instalment.

[ieuanMr]

Yes, the bank has confirmed that they have lost the agreements. The thing is I am entitled to ask the court to demand they provide the agreement, then if they fail, they might have 30 days, I can ask for the agreement to be declared unenforcable. And if it is unenforceable it can be stricken off and he is free of them.

[middenmess]

Yes, the bank has confirmed that they have lost the agreements. The thing is I am entitled to ask the court to demand they provide the agreement, then if they fail, they might have 30 days, I can ask for the agreement to be declared unenforcable. And if it is unenforceable it can be stricken off and he is free of them.

 

I'm only surmising but...

 

If they fail to respond to your court request,you will have to then take them to court to have the agreement declared unenforceable at further expense.

 

It will not be a foregone conclusion in Court as they might well recreate or reconstruct an agreement which the judge might accept.

 

If it was just a matter of spending £30 to have a missing agreement declared unenforceable then there would be many thousands of people queueing up to do so.

 

They harass without mercy those people who just owe a few hundred pounds-for the many thousands involved here they are unlikely to just roll over and the agreement might well turn up in the meantime.

 

I'd be inclined to wait for them to make their moves and respond to those as and when.

[middenmess]

Have a quick look at this from Vint...

 

Have you seen this today for a Judge lottery. No CCA, No DN and no TN, but the CAG member lost.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...ml#post2637727

[ieuanMr]

Thanks for the link Middenmess, I spent an hour on it last night and posted a remark. I thought that the case had little hope of success since the debt had been paid in full. In case law where there is no properly exectuted agreement then where the debt is fully paid there is no remedy available.

I think I would have grabbed the £750 and fled as it is he is lucky not to be stuck with the bank's costs. The first judge pointed out that there was no agreement and all he had to do was apply for minimal damages to win yet it is difficult to see how much more he could have claimed for over and above the £750

 

I know it is easy for me to speculate and he did have the guts to actually go to court but a sad reminder on how difficult these court actions can be without professional help.

 

In my case there is still a substantial amount left on the 'alleged' debt, around £21 000. So there is a remedy available and that is to cancel this amount. Our original claims was for Unfair Relationshp due to the upfront charge of £6 000 for PPI and interest. There is no contract agreement available so the emphasis is on the bank to prove they have been fair in their dealings. Since there is no agreement it will be difficult for them to prove anything. But could we claim back PPI where there is no agreement, that is the problem. I don't doubt we could win it just remains how much we could win and how to avoid legal faux pas by forgetting to claim under the correct legislationa and ask for a remedy from the Judge.

Edited December 11, 2009 by ieuanMr

[42man]

Yes you need to be mindful of unjust enrichment.....

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi Ieuan,

Just popping back in to see how you're doing

My, you have been busy...and learned so much! Well done!

I have to agree with 42man here...if there's no agreement and hence you get the £21,000 written off / refuse to pay / the agreement declared unenforceable...whatever...then it wouldn't be appropriate to pursue the PPI claim.

However, should the bank somehow magically persuade a court to enforce the agreement, obviously you would then offset it with the PPI claim.

One or't'other

 

Glad you're getting things sorted, keep up the good work

Elsa xx

[ieuanMr]

Hello Elsa

Thought you had been busy hunting for bison and elk...hehe. Yes you echo my own thoughts, ask the court to make a judgement and if the document pop out in the meantime then claim for Unfair Relationship due to miss-selling of PPI and hope to get everything cancelled in the meantime we have a repayment holiday.

 

But while you were away Middenmess has been frightening me with case historys that failed, but I do take his point that I have to be ultra craefull in the process.

 

42man, I wish there was a legal definaition of restitutionary damages online, where and how it applies when claiming damages. The problem with lack of an enforcebale agreement is how much and on what basis do we claim damages for an agrement that has been lost.

Edited December 11, 2009 by ieuanMr