Tesco challenge 25

[RHOOD]

was it plastic or metal teaspoons ?

 

Still no hassle purchasing alcohol or shopping in Morrisons or ASDA

 

Shall we guess the next item/items to be blocked by THINK 25

 

I will go for - not allowed to use a shopping trolley

[hightail]

According to the article a Tesco spokesman said an element of common sense is necessary - that makes sense. This is however, in direct conflict with the policy of managers always backing checkout staff if they refuse to sell something to a customer. It seems fair to me that if something going through the till flags up as needing ID that the cashier must comply. The 'common sense' bit should come from a supervisor or manager but they are blinkered as they've been told to back their staff in any refusal to sell.

 

I believe Tesco are the worst offenders because their staff are too frightened to apply common sense. I've always reckoned that good customer service is the result of happy staff who are treated well. Out of the three supermarkets in my area the Tesco staff are always the most miserable and tense.

[RHOOD]

According to the article a Tesco spokesman said an element of common sense is necessary - that makes sense. This is however, in direct conflict with the policy of managers always backing checkout staff if they refuse to sell something to a customer. It seems fair to me that if something going through the till flags up as needing ID that the cashier must comply. The 'common sense' bit should come from a supervisor or manager but they are blinkered as they've been told to back their staff in any refusal to sell.

 

I believe Tesco are the worst offenders because their staff are too frightened to apply common sense. I've always reckoned that good customer service is the result of happy staff who are treated well. Out of the three supermarkets in my area the Tesco staff are always the most miserable and tense.

 

Just do what i did and shop somewhere else

[Guest CaptJim]

I believe Tesco are the worst offenders because their staff are too frightened to apply common sense. I've always reckoned that good customer service is the result of happy staff who are treated well. Out of the three supermarkets in my area the Tesco staff are always the most miserable and tense.

 

You may be right about how the staff feel, as the atmosphere in the Tesco's Metro store I visit most often is tense and the staff mostly stressed and miserable. Some of the managers appear relaxed, but the supervisors near the checkouts seem very stressed and depressed. Some of the staff do manage to raise a smile and conversation, but only a few.

 

suzieblooz who contributed a lot to this thread appears to have been fairly happy and her store didn't appear to have many problems with Think 25. Perhaps a well managed shop with more relaxed staff is the key to getting this right. As you say, Morrisons and Asda are not a problem and the atmosphere of the staff is less stressed.

 

The managers at Tesco's could learn a lot from the comments and opinions here and in similar forums. Whether they do remains to be seen.

[RHOOD]

[

The managers at Tesco's could learn a lot from the comments and opinions here and in similar forums. Whether they do remains to be seen.

 

THEY WILL ONCE THE PROFITS/BONUSES GO DOWN

 

I complained via e-mail to customer services got fobbed off wont be back when we could of had a laugh about it in the shop at the time.

[Stew1958]

I have just started working for a local branch of a national newsagent chain.

 

I was phoned by the manager earlier this evening who told me that the 'Challenge 25' policy is now law. If I don't think the customer looks 25 I have to challenge them and, if necessary, refuse the sale.

 

If they don't look 25, I don't challenge them and they are underage for the product they want, I can be fired and taken to court facing a £1,000 fine. The manager would get a written warning - two of those and he loses his job.

 

I have been told that there are already mystery shoppers out and about checking up on us.

 

What would you do?

[hightail]

I'd ask for ID. It's not the challenge that I objected to, it was the refusal to accept a valid ID from someone who wasn't even purchasing alcohol but happened to be with me. I'm in my 50s and perfectly entitled to legally purchase and drink beer.

[Guest CaptJim]

I have just started working for a local branch of a national newsagent chain.

 

I was phoned by the manager earlier this evening who told me that the 'Challenge 25' policy is now law. If I don't think the customer looks 25 I have to challenge them and, if necessary, refuse the sale.

 

If they don't look 25, I don't challenge them and they are underage for the product they want, I can be fired and taken to court facing a £1,000 fine. The manager would get a written warning - two of those and he loses his job.

 

I have been told that there are already mystery shoppers out and about checking up on us.

 

What would you do?

 

The first thing I would recommend you do is ask the manager for some evidence that Challenge 25 or Think 25 is law. You could also ask what ID you are supposed to accept and what products it applies to.

 

It appears that you care about getting this right, so given what others have posted here about correct ID being refused, I don't expect you would want to do anything unreasonable like that. If you have a lot of foreign customers you may find it difficult if they only have foreign ID and you are told to only accept UK ID. That could make you appear racist, without any intention to do so.

 

Apart from Derby, where I have read that once adopted by a pub or club the policy is put into their licence conditions, there is no legality to these schemes. There is no legal obligation for you to refuse to serve someone alcohol or cigarettes if they are over 18. It is a legal defence to state that "it was reasonable to believe that they were over 18" or "any reasonable person would believe that they were over 18". The law has not been changed to "appearing to be over 25" to buy alcohol or cigarettes without ID.

 

Whilst I understand the pressure of a manager suggesting that you and he may loose your jobs over this, the reality is that is very unlikely to happen, unless you were caught supplying someone under age with an age restricted product. Trading standards child shoppers would be unlikely to look anywhere near 25 as they are often 14-15, although I have read of cases where sales assistants claimed that they were dressed to appear over 18. Mystery shoppers from your employers could be around 20 or so if they are testing Challenge 25, but then they would be testing policy not the law.

 

If you make a reasonable request of people who appear to be under 18 or around that age you will probably find that is accepted by most customers and enough to keep you manager happy too. It should also be enough to keep you within the law. Be polite and use a bit of judgement and you won't upset many people.

 

If you find you can apply this policy fairly and comfortably then fine. However, if your employer wants to enforce 25 or more as the legal age for sales and is asking you to put yourself at risk in enforcing that policy then I would suggest you find a more reasonable employer. I am not saying that lightly, but seriously. Why make customers angry who are clearly way over 18 to enforce an unreasonable policy that exceeds the legal requirements?

 

If you want to learn more on the subject try the links mentioned by electron99 and myself earlier in this thread. Don't believe everything you read though, look for evidence & facts. I hope you can strike a balance in this and settle into your job. I would be interested to hear how it works out.

[guy77]

As long as the policy is in full view of everyone, Tesco have every right to refuse the sale of alcohol to anyone. I'm not sure about what is acceptable ID. I always thought it was either your birth certificate, driving license or passport. .

 

No offence, but I doubt that a birth certificate would be acceptable. Think about it. It seems that the stupidity inherent in this comment is corroberated by the rest of your post.

[skonk]

No offence, but I doubt that a birth certificate would be acceptable. Think about it. It seems that the stupidity inherent in this comment is corroberated by the rest of your post.

 

 

And you are?

[in-anticipation]

If this has been said already then my apologises for not reading all the way through the thread but.............

It may seem daft and ok some people may take it to extremes but I believe that the person on the till that sells alchohol or ANY age restricted product to an underage person is legally liable and can end up with a criminal record if the buyer is stopped by the police etc etc. If the person on the till is themselves under 18 they have to get the approval of another sales assisitant etc who is over 18 and in such cases both members of staff are legally liable etc etc. Ditto if the restricted product is sold to an adult who is buying it for an underage person. Given these liabilities I am not surprised that sales are refused. If it were you on a till would you want a criminal record? Better to err on the side of caution I think!

[fiyah]

i also work in retail (sainsburys) and its drilled into us "if in doubt.....ask"

i would rather my staff ID everyone, and there was a point in the part of the UK where i work where everyone purchasing an age restricted product had to be served under dual control.....the person serving the customer AND another colleague had to agree they were over 21 (which it was at the time) didnt matter if they were 18 or 80!

The reason for doing this will be explained later.

I myself think the think 25 policy is better than the think 21, its easier to judge someones age who is 7 years over the legal age of 18 than 4 years as it was with think 21.

We do refresher training every 6 months so that all colleagues,management and security guards are fully trained, and aware of the consequences, regarding under age sales.

I would want to end up with:-

£80 on the spot fixed penalty

criminal record

possibility of being taken to court

lose my job

cause the store to lose its licence.

The amount of pressure on my till colleagues to make sure they dont get caught out is unreal.

I back my colleagues up 100% if they call me to the tills because a customer is kicking off because they have been asked for ID...........its not like there isnt enough signage around the shop telling you that is you look under 25 you will be asked for ID, and this isnt because i get a kick out of it or my staff, infact ive been kicked, spat at, punched and bottles/cans thrown at me because ive refused the sale.

Id take all that grief because i dont want one of the above consequences happening to me.

Till colleagues are also trained that if someone is buying an age restricted product that they SUSPECT is for someone else that they can also ID anyone with them...........thats all they need an element of suspicion, again i will back them up 100%.

Now back to our dual control measures that were enforced.

A store in my area had a test purchaser come into the store, i think the test purchaser was about 16, they were served with an age restricted product and not asked for ID

The till colleague was given a fixed penalty notice AND took to court.

4 days later, trading standards came a knocking again, different colleague and different test purchaser. once again they were sold an age restricted item, colleague given £80 fixed penalty notice and the store manager given a final warning........this was when it was 3 strikes and your out, its now 2!

2 weeks later, same scenario....another failed test purchase.

Same things happened, colleague fined, the store given a temporary notice against their licence...............store manager went home that afternoon after explaining to the area manager and the regional manager what had happened.............had a massive asthma attack and died.

Thats when dual control was brought in.

Me as a manager, wouldnt wish that kind of stress on my worst enemy.

So im more than happy to take the grief and abuse off a few customers than to end up in an early grave!

[frodojack]

As a Victoria Wine employee, we have the right to refuse anyone, this includes those who are drunk and incapable. Interestingly, I MUST refuse to sell alcohol to a Policeman/woman in uniform.

The Tesco's employee who posted earlier is spot on about valid ID such as Portman cards and Prove-It photo cards. Foreign passports are not valid. Not seen a EU card but I would refuse to accept it as it is not on our list of valid IDs.

If you suspect that an octogenerian is going to supply their 17 year old grandchild with alcohol you have the right to refuse the sale. Its exactly like the man buying for under age who tap him up outside the shop.

 

I will be prosecuted under the law. My brother was prosecuted for being the licence holder of a night club, although the club allowed 17 year olds in whilst he was on holiday abroad. He lost his licence for 5 years and was fined £1200. The bar staff were also prosecuted.

You can tie this into racial disability or whatever discrimination, but if you're entitled to buy alcohol you can easily provide the valid proof of this instead of having a tantrum at the checkout. The vendor has the right to refuse the sale, the law is clear on this. I certainly won't take any risks and I think the Tesco's guidance is pretty good also.

[guy77]

And you are?

 

guy77

[1stlifeline]

I used to work in an off license and can say its a nightmare trying to keep control of who you are serving alcohol to. Its not just a case of the peson being old enough to purchase the alcohol, its what they do with it later. The street was and still is full of kids who are under age asking people to go in to purchase for them, Trading standards would also send people in to buy to try to catch us out. If I sold to the wrong person it was me that would get the criminal record, not the shop management.

On one occasion a colleague served a woman who was a regular customer who came in 2 or 3 times a week and was in her mid fifties. She had been seen talking to a young girl on the street but as we knew it was her neice no alarm bells rang. 5 minutes after serving her a TS inspector came in and she was taken to court, fined and given a criminal record. They dont accept ANY reasons or excuses, you have to cover your back all the time.

My son works on security at Tesco and its common for young people to be on the car park asking adults to go in to purchase, (Ive been asked myself to 'get us a pack of Wicked and you can keep the change') Security see this happening and are aware before the person enters the store that they have been approached by under age drinkers. If security see this happening then they do keep an eye on the person entering the store and have every right to tell the cashiers not to serve the alcohol.

Its not just a case of being sure the person buying is old enough, you also have to be sure they are not buying on someone elses behalf.

[guy77]

But with a list of acceptable ID that only includes a UK passport and driving licence and ID you have to purchase by presenting something similar to the issuing company

 

Hi - thanks very much for your genearl comments on this issue - i'm sure I speak for everyone when I say that your research has helped us and saved us some time! Since you are the expert on this forum (I don't mean this to sound sarcastic btw!), I was wondering if I could pick your brain on the following:

 

1) Is Challenge 25 now incorporated into the law such that pubs must abide by it, or are they only legally obliged to follow it if they opt into the scheme?

 

2) If someone is challenged, are the only acceptable forms of identification a)Passport; or b)Driving license, or is it the case that the pub only has to take reasonable steps to ensure that the person is atleast 18 (what is "reasonable" depending on the circumstances).

 

3) If a person is challenged under the scheme and cannot satisfy the pub that they are atleast 18, is the pub then legally obliged to eject them from the premises?

 

I'd really appreciate your help on this as I can't find an official document on the web that answers these questions. In case you're wondering, i'm 25 and was refused alcohol in a pub because I didn't have ID. I wasn't bothered as I had work the next day so I ordered a coke instead. This request was refused and I was asked to leave the pub because they said I needed either a driving license or UK Passport. I want to know if this guy was legally obliged to throw me out, or whether he just needed to take reasonable steps to ensure I was over 18 (the two friends I was with proved that they were 24 and 27, and I had uni ID which was always accepted a few years ago).

 

Frankly, i've had enough....I get ID'd now far more than I did when I was 18...it's gone to far!

 

Thanks

[frodojack]

I think Licensees have absolute discretion. It may seem tough or discriminatory, but it is totally down to them. To avoid the inconvenience, I would carry valid ID when going out. In fact offer it, they would welcome this.

[guy77]

I think Licensees have absolute discretion. It may seem tough or discriminatory, but it is totally down to them. To avoid the inconvenience, I would carry valid ID when going out. In fact offer it, they would welcome this.

 

Thanks, but no thanks. I'm glad what you wrote was short - if it had been long then I would have been very angry that I had politely endeavoured to read it to the end only to realise that your statement was merely an expression of opinion that made no attempt to answer the specific questions that I raised.

[blitz]

1) Opt in, recommended by government departments

 

2) The core acceptable IDs are Passport, Driving Licence and Pass scheme card. Not all will accept a pass scheme card, yes they have to be satisfied that the person is over 18 however due to fines, licence restricts the better safe than sorry approach, the think 25 scheme is as much to alert the customer to carry ID as it is for licensee to check this ID.

 

The reason it is these 3 is because they are easily identifiable, Student ID is not, and could for all they know be fake. (I am a uni student)

 

3) If you cannot satisfy you are over 18 by the above ID, yes they are obligated dependent on licence restrictions.

Edited February 24, 2010 by blitz

[greigster]

Thanks, but no thanks. I'm glad what you wrote was short - if it had been long then I would have been very angry that I had politely endeavoured to read it to the end only to realise that your statement was merely an expression of opinion that made no attempt to answer the specific questions that I raised.

 

Wow how rude, perhaps the reasons for refusal are more to do with how old you act rather than how old you look;)

[guy77]

1) Opt in, recommended by government departments

 

quote]

 

Thanks very much - I really appreciate this valuable info

 

cheers

[blitz]

For some of the comments on this page, I have seen no where that think 25 is law, its still opt in. As such not asking someone under the age of 25 will not get you to court (unless they were under 18.)

 

If a company holds a think 25 policy then yes they may mystery shop it, however this would be internal. I have seen various think 21 mystery shops, not a think 25 one at the moment (I am a member of various mystery shop companies)

 

@Guy77: Essentially if you look under 25, or tbh if you look say under 28 you can now be expected to hold ID otherwise you will be refused service. If you cannot prove you are 18, licensed premises who are not allowed under 18s in would be obliged to ask you to leave, or evict you from the premises, others may out of policy for not having under 18s/21s in, they can do this. The rule of thumb is always take a passport or driving licence out with you, otherwise you may be refused service. If you have been refused due to no ID, you have no case to argue the onus is on you to prove your age with those IDs not to prove you age in other ways or the venue to prove your under 18.

 

Countless times have I refused service to people aged 21-25 who didn't have ID when I was working as a barman, countless times I refused service to under 21s due to policy and asked them to leave. Its not the easiest part of the job, if we think you might be and look over 21 and you still don't have ID it has to be assumed regardless that your not 18.

Edited February 25, 2010 by blitz

[greigster]

1) Opt in, recommended by government departments

 

quote]

 

Thanks very much - I really appreciate this valuable info

 

cheers

 

Your very welcome

Its nice to be nice;)

[frodojack]

As a Victoria Wine employee, we have the right to refuse anyone, this includes those who are drunk and incapable. Interestingly, I MUST refuse to sell alcohol to a Policeman/woman in uniform.

The Tesco's employee who posted earlier is spot on about valid ID such as Portman cards and Prove-It photo cards. Foreign passports are not valid. Not seen a EU card but I would refuse to accept it as it is not on our list of valid IDs.

If you suspect that an octogenerian is going to supply their 17 year old grandchild with alcohol you have the right to refuse the sale. Its exactly like the man buying for under age who tap him up outside the shop.

 

I will be prosecuted under the law. My brother was prosecuted for being the licence holder of a night club, although the club allowed 17 year olds in whilst he was on holiday abroad. He lost his licence for 5 years and was fined £1200. The bar staff were also prosecuted.

You can tie this into racial disability or whatever discrimination, but if you're entitled to buy alcohol you can easily provide the valid proof of this instead of having a tantrum at the checkout. The vendor has the right to refuse the sale, the law is clear on this. I certainly won't take any risks and I think the Tesco's guidance is pretty good also.

 

I also posted the above. Sorry if it was information you didn't want to hear. That is always the problem when you ask a question - you can't guarantee the answer is to your liking. They can also refuse to serve anyone with attitude....

[guy77]

I also posted the above. Sorry if it was information you didn't want to hear. That is always the problem when you ask a question - you can't guarantee the answer is to your liking. They can also refuse to serve anyone with attitude....

 

Whilst it is true that you can never guarantee that the answer to any question will be to your liking, this is not the same thing as expecting the answer to actually address the question raised. The fact remains that I asked three very specific questions - any response that failed to address these would be unsatisfactory to me. You did not make any attempt to address these three points so your statement was therefore unsatisfactory. Blitz addressed the points made and I was grateful for that.

 

With regards to the implication that I have attitude - judge not lest thee be judged.