JSA - Terrified - only been signed on for 2 weeks.

[gilliana]

All your advice would be terrific. After 16 years in the same job I've been made redundant and just signed on for JSA. This was my first job since school so I've got little experience of job applications/interviews didnt even have a CV.

 

I've just had my first official meeting at my local job center, after the original sign-up meeting. I am so terrified not sure I can go back. Thought they were meant to help. They've given me a little booklet and I have to write three activities per week I've done to find a job. So in my first two weeks I've written a CV, saved down loads of job website links, contacted three recruitment agencies and given them my cv, searched the papers etc. But I turn up at the interview and was almost shouted at as I have to have applied for 2 new jobs per week and I didn't. I was told unless I apply for two new jobs per week and provide evidence to the lady then my benefit will be removed at the next meeting. I'm sitting here desparately searching for any job to apply for even though they are not good jobs for me or I dont even meet the qualifications. Seems pointless to apply for jobs that for example say I have to speak Italian - when I don't - but is this what the job center wants?

 

Your advice would be great. I feel like I'm about to waste time applying for jobs that I won't get.. when I actually could be looking/concentrating on finding a job that I am well suited for, experienced in and hopefully can do for many years.

[Jan4a]

That isn't right. I'm in the same boat as you as I'd worked all my life and was made redundant in January. I have to fill the book in too but there's no way I have to apply for 2 jobs a fortnight!! The jobs just aren't there to apply for and the staff at the Job Centre know this. I put in my book where I have looked for work, their website, newspapers, agencies and other websites I check and they are fine with this,

 

You have done more than enough to prove you are looking for work - they shouldn't be shouting at you.

 

Job Centre staff have always been nice with me but I've seen other posts on here where they've given people a hard time. You don't always get the same person, maybe next time you'll get someone nicer.

 

in the meantime there are experts on here who will probably comment later on what your rights are and who you can complain to.

 

Good luck.

[loopinlouie]

Goodness I can only imagine how you felt when told off, I would have left crying. Its obvious you are doing your best, so good luck and as said you will find great advice here from those who know:D

[FitzWilliam]

I was told unless I apply for two new jobs per week and provide evidence to the lady then my benefit will be removed at the next meeting.

 

Welcome to the world of Jobcentre Plus!:-|

 

It sounds like you are okay at the moment because they haven't sanctioned your claim. But from now on you will have to fill in your jobsearch booklet to indicate that you have applied for at least two jobs a week [sorry, said 'fortnight' in first unedited posting].

 

There are two simple answers to your problem. One is to do what many people do and play the system. The other is to go through the motions and apply for the jobs.

 

1. Playing the system

 

If the jobcentre give you a job to apply for then you must apply for it, even if you don't think it's suitable for you. Jobcentre staff will check whether you have applied for the job and will sanction your claim if you haven't.

 

But if you find your own jobs in newspapers etc then they are not allowed to check whether you have applied or not.

 

So what you do, if you can't find enough jobs that are suitable for you, is to pick a couple from the newspaper and pretend you have applied for them. Just write in your jobsearch booklet that you sent off a letter and cv for them, or phoned for an application form.

 

There are many thousands of people in the UK who do this, and it stops them getting hassle from those annoying busybodies that work in jobcentres.

 

2. Going though the motions

 

If you feel uncomfortable pretending to have applied for jobs then you will just have to apply for them. My advice then is to scrawl off the application letters, preferably with spelling mistakes, and then put in a cv with a big gap for the last two or three years.

 

It sounds bad, I know, but at least it means your application will end up in the trash and you won't have to go for an interview for a job you don't want and which you wouldn't be suited for.

 

Of course, if you find a job you genuinely want then apply for it and give it your best shot!

 

* * *

 

Unfortunately, as you have found out, some jobcentre staff are miserable jobsworths who give people a hard time. Many of them are poorly educated, and they don't understand the systems they are supposed to be operating.

 

So console yourself with this thought: You are much better than them!

 

I can see from your posting that you are an able and intelligent person, so if you persevere you will have a very good chance of getting back to work. Good luck!

 

Nolite te b*****des carborundum!

Edited September 2, 2009 by FitzWilliam

[FitzWilliam]

Hey, this website just censored my Latin!

 

N o l i t e

t e

b a s t a r d e s

c a r b o r u n d u m.

[Jan4a]

Fitzwilliam - sounds like good advice.

 

I didn't know you had to apply for 2 jobs a fortnight though. I haven't always done this and they haven't said anything. Is it a rule? They didn't seem that interested in what I did for the first six months but after that I get more "help". But it has been help, not hassle like Gilliana got.

 

Do they just check the jobcentre jobs and they're OK if there are none on there that you could have applied for?

 

It does also seem to depend on whether you get a nice person or not.

[FitzWilliam]

It does also seem to depend on whether you get a nice person or not.

 

Yes, this pretty much says it!

 

Some jobcentre staff are quite relaxed and don't cause hassle, and some are too bored to care, but it's the jobsworths who enforce the letter of the law who give you a hard time.

 

The number of jobs you have to apply for is given in your 'Jobseeker's Agreement' (little grey booklet numbered ES3JP). Mine, for instance, says I must write to at least one employer a week, phone at least two employers a week, and visit at least nought employers a week.

 

If the jobcentre send you for a job they will print the details on a page headed 'Client Copy'. These are the jobs you absolutely must apply for. They will check, and if you haven't applied you will get a sanction.

 

Sometimes they get a false negative when checking (your application got lost in the post, misfiled, etc) so always keep a copy of your letter or email to prove you applied for it.

 

Nowadays, I put about eight jobsearches in my booklet each fortnight and don't get hassle. Have I really applied for all these jobs? Maybe I have and maybe I haven't.;-)

[gilliana]

Fitzwilliam - thank you so much for the honest advice. It sounds like I'm very unfortunate in the lady I've been allocated at the job center. She didn't like me from day one. I had to bring my child with me (18 month old) and she mentioned I shouldnt be coming with her to my meetings. If I had the courage I would have said, why am I going to pay for childcare right now when I don't have a job. But I just stayed quiet.

 

How much detail do you put in the job search booklet. Is it OK to put something like:

 

Searched www.reeedaccountancyblah.com for jobs. One suitable, Bookkeeper. Sent CV off to company Wednesday 2nd Sep. Waiting for response.

 

Thanks.

[FitzWilliam]

It sounds like I'm very unfortunate in the lady I've been allocated at the job center. She didn't like me from day one. I had to bring my child with me (18 month old) and she mentioned I shouldnt be coming with her to my meetings.

 

Yes, it's bad luck you got this woman. She's a low-grade civil servant in a poorly paid job, but she has no right to take out her grievances on other people. They can't stop you taking your daughter with you.

 

If this woman gets too much for you you could ask the jobcentre manager to assign you to someone else. But actually, you might find that in future you sign on with other people.

 

The person I sign on with changes from fortnight to fortnight.

 

The sort of detail you give for your jobsearch booklet is fine. They mostly just count the number of jobsearches anyway.

 

Let us know how things go in future.

[gilliana]

Thank you.

 

Well hopefully will find another bookkeeping job that I can stay at for another 16 years and then I can retire!!

 

Fingers crossed that it is a different lady next time. If not then at least thanks to you, I know what to do!

 

Will post an update on the 'mean women' if I see her next week!

[FitzWilliam]

Yes, definitely keep this thread going. I'd like to know what happens, and it's helpful to have shared experiences.

 

Your mean woman sounds like a typical jobcentre grump, but if you want a real horror story about a woman who works in a jobcentre see my thread called 'Victimisation and Attempted Prosecution by Jobcentre':

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/benefits-tax-credits-minimum/213211-victimisation-attempted-prosecution-jobcentre.html

 

I think that our jobcentre security guard may actually be the worst jobcentre employee in the whole of England! No kidding!

 

Patma's thread called 'Harassment and victimisation by Jobcentre' is another good ongoing story about a nightmare experience in a jobcentre:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/benefits-tax-credits-minimum/195489-harassment-victimisation-jobcentre.html

 

These two stories are pretty hair-raising, I can tell you. But they at least show that a mean woman is not half as bad as a malicious, lying and evil woman!

[Jack Daniels]

gilliana

are you a single parent ??

if so claim Income Support then you will not have this hastle every week and can look for a job that suits you

[Jan4a]

Fitzwilliam - looked at my book and it doesn't say I have to apply for x number of jobs per week. Just the usual things you do when looking for work that I am doing anyway. As I am looking I put all this on my list and its always fine.

 

Seems a bit unfair that some people have to apply for x number of jobs a week and some don't. Especially when comparing Gilliana and myself as she is only just unemployed and I've been unemployed since January. Is it up to JobCentre's discretion? I think mine took the common sense view that the jobs (in my sector) aren't there to apply for.

[FitzWilliam]

Looked at my book and it doesn't say I have to apply for x number of jobs per week. ... Is it up to JobCentre's discretion?

 

I can't answer with absolute authority. But I know that at meetings such as your six-month review they often change jobsearch requirements, usually to increase the number of jobs you have to apply for and widen the area of search.

 

So yes, jobsearch requirements vary from individual to individual.

 

Generally speaking, you will be safe from hassle if your jobsearch booklet shows you've applied for at least four jobs a fortnight. You can further fill the booklet by saying things like you searched in the newspapers, you went to the library to use their computers for jobsearch, and so on.

 

Last fortnight I filled in 8 things in my booklet. 5 were jobs, 2 visits to the library, and 1 consulting a local newspaper. They didn't give me any hassle.

 

* * *

 

Now a scary story ...

 

Last year a friend of mine suceeded in getting a job and was about to start it a few days after his next signing date. It was the third job he's applied for that fortnight, and so he didn't bother searching any further for work.

 

When he went to sign on they said he hadn't filled in enough jobsearches in his booklet, because there were only three jobsearches! So they sanctioned his claim, stopping all his money for the last fortnight; and because he was left penniless he couldn't travel to the job and lost it.

 

That's what happens when jobsworths are employed in jobcentres. Any reasonable person would have said congratulations on getting the job, paid his last lot of benefits, and wished him well.

 

Sadly, this kind of thing happens; and I really wish they could employ people with brains, common sense and decency in jobcentres.

[Jan4a]

After all the horror stories I've heard I realise I have been very lucky with the staff at my JobCentre.

[sillygirl1]

I had a similar experience several years ago, kept putting my CV onto internet job sites and getting bombarded with 'special offers' instead of jobs. However I did get noticed by a very good agency who got me into the company I am still with. The jobcentre person said 'We have to get people back into work as quickly as possible - if we let them 'stew' they don't want to go back!'

 

It isn't a pleasant experience but it is worth 'playing THEIR game' to the hilt and applying for X no of jobs each week, don't forget to list down reading the papers, job websites and calls to agencies (although I understand a lot of agencies have now downsized....)

[FitzWilliam]

After all the horror stories I've heard I realise I have been very lucky with the staff at my JobCentre.

 

You'd better believe it!

 

At my jobcentre clients get labelled 'Potentially Violent' if they complain about administrative errors, have their claims sanctioned when they are about to start jobs, and get arrested by the police when the security guard makes false accusations about them!

 

Even the staff are falling out. Last year the security guard complained to the police about the jobcentre manager! And at least one member of staff has made a formal complaint about the security guard!

 

The local CAB are tearing their hair out because of all the complaints they receive, and the police are fed up sick of what's going on.

 

No kidding, it's a nightmare at our jobcentre.

[FitzWilliam]

After that last posting I will say something more positive.

 

Sillygirl's advice - not such a silly girl after all - about agency work is very good.

 

You sound to me like someone an agency would see as an asset, and if you did the rounds of them with your cv they would most likely be very interested. Going in person would be best, and it might well bring positive results.

[insyder]

Okay, there's one main point here. You do not have apply for two jobs a fortnight or any amount of jobs. You have to be actively seeking work.

 

The JSAg (that's the jobseekers agreement that you have discussed with your advisor at the new claim and signed) shows what you need to do.

 

This is usually made up of the following things:

 

1. Three actions a week that you must do. The JSAg shows four different categories and you may find that some are 2 and some are 0 depending on what is right for you when you are looking for work.

 

2. A part showing newspapers/magazines that you must check for jobs in on a weekly/daily/monthly basis

 

3. A large box which covers other agreed steps such as looking on the internet for a minimum of 2 times a week.

 

If your JSAg does not reflect what you are actually doing then let the jobcentre know and book an appointment to have the JSAg reviewed. Too many people just sign the agreement without full discussion and without reading it.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------

 

FitzWilliam, your advice is flawed in quite a few areas and I need to highlight these for other people reading the thread.

 

But from now on you will have to fill in your jobsearch booklet to indicate that you have applied for at least two jobs a week [sorry, said 'fortnight' in first unedited posting].

 

Generally speaking, you will be safe from hassle if your jobsearch booklet shows you've applied for at least four jobs a fortnight.

 

As mentioned this is not true.

 

But if you find your own jobs in newspapers etc then they are not allowed to check whether you have applied or not.

 

It's not a question of not being allowed, it just isn't practical to do this.

 

Many of them are poorly educated, and they don't understand the systems they are supposed to be operating.

 

No, this is just nonsense. The issue is with the very complex and complicated systems which are brought in and then changed continually. Most staff are intelligent and caring people who are trying to bridge a very large gap between what the government wants and what is practically possible in the job.

 

Of course, it is understandable that some people have bad experiences in jobcentres (as with any service) and their advice is an opinion which is valid. I just wanted to straighten some myths and guesses out a bit.

[FitzWilliam]

Insyder,

 

I must disagree with your criticism of my advice that Gilliana should show she has applied for at least four jobs a fortnight.

 

She clearly says in her first posting:

 

But I turn up at the interview and was almost shouted at as I have to have applied for 2 new jobs per week and I didn't. I was told unless I apply for two new jobs per week and provide evidence to the lady then my benefit will be removed at the next meeting.

 

If her jobcentre expect 2 job applications a week, making 4 a fortnight, then she will find life much easier if she has applied for this number of jobs. My advice is intended to keep the jobcentre off her back, and I regard it as good practical advice.

 

* * *

 

You quote me as saying, 'Generally speaking, you will be safe from hassle if your jobsearch booklet shows you have applied for at least four jobs a fortnight,' and then comment 'this is not true'.

 

I offered qualified advice, not a statement of fact, and this advice is valid. If you've only got a couple of jobsearches in your booklet you will get hassle from the jobcentre; if you've got plenty you won't get hassle.

 

I said 'generally speaking' for a reason, and 'generally speaking' my advice is sound.

 

* * *

 

I commented that staff are 'not allowed' to check whether you have applied for jobs you find yourself in newspapers etc. I was told this by a former staff member of my jobcentre.

 

You commented that they do not check because it 'isn't practical' for them to do so.

 

I don't think it's worth quibbling over. The salient fact is that they do not check whether you have applied for these jobs.

 

* * *

 

I'm afraid that it's simply not the case, Insyder, that 'most staff are intelligent and caring people'. This only applies to a minority of jobcentre staff.

 

Frontline staff in jobcentres are low-paid civil servants and the work does not, on the whole, attract able or well-educated people. In my town the jobcentre is notorious at the local CAB for the incompetence and rudeness of staff. I know some of the stories, and the worst ones are shocking.

 

In a recent Radio 4 expose on Jobcentre Plus (May 2009) some the main themes were.

 

1. Jobcentres are depressing and unwelcoming places.

2. The staff are unhelpful and hidebound and often make administrative mistakes.

3. Morale among jobcentre staff is low.

4. Staff struggle to understand the systems they operate, especially whenever new changes are introduced.

 

It is fair to say that a few jobcentre staff are intelligent, capable and friendly. But at the lower end staff are unintelligent, demotivated, and in the very worst cases bitter and vindictive. They are the ones that cause the problems.

 

Sorry, but that's the real world of Jobcentre Plus.

[gilliana]

I'm not looking to jump in the arguement here!!

 

I did want to say though that the advice FitzWilliam gave me was ULTRA helpful and basically exactly what I need. I just want to look for a new job that I know will suit me for many years (hopefully), and in the meantime not have a breakdown over the stress of my two weekly job center interviews. I really need the job seekers allowance to tide me over (the threat that they were going to cancel me was very worrying), and I don't want to leave the job center crying and worrying as it isn't healthy for me or my little girl.

 

I second Fitz that the job center I went to was a really POOR experience for me. Having never stepped into a place, I was felt really vunerable (expecially as it had nightclub style bouncers at the door) and it was very unwelcoming. I felt VERY out of place carrying my child, made to feel almost guilty that I've been made redundant (nothing I could have done - recession mean't the company I've worked for 16 years can't pay staff due to poor sales) and wronged that I had not found a new job in 2 weeks of claiming.

 

So thank you FitzWilliam - it was the practical advice I needed.

[FitzWilliam]

I will pick up on what Insyder says about how jobseekers must show they are 'actively seeking work':

 

You do not have apply for two jobs a fortnight or any amount of jobs. You have to be actively seeking work.

 

Yes, it's true that you must be 'actively seeking work', but the way jobcentre staff measure this is often taken merely on a count of jobsearches. That's why you have to do those jobsearches to steer clear of potential problems.

 

In Sep 2008 a friend of mine had his claim sanctioned because he only had three jobsearches in his booklet, even though the last one clearly showed he had got a job and was about to start it.

 

To any reasonably person this would be ample demonstration that he had been 'actively seeking work', and had proved it by getting a job. But the hidebound and bureaucratic jobcentre staff sanctioned his claim! Because they stopped his money he could not travel to the job and lost it.

 

And this is what the DWP later said in a letter to his MP:

 

'On 29 September [2008] we applied a sanction to Mr [Name]’s claim from 11 to 23 September. We applied this sanction as Mr [Name] had failed to show sufficient evidence that he had been actively seeking work.'

 

I find this utterly shocking.

 

My point then is this. We all know that Gilliana is 'actively seeking work', just like my friend was. But the jobcentre expect her to apply for 2 jobs a week, and if she does not do that they will sanction her claim.

 

I offer not technical advice based on bureaucratic principals, but real world advice based on my own experience and on that of people I know. You've got to play along with these jobcentre jobsworths, and Sillygirl put it well when she said:

 

'It isn't a pleasant experience but it is worth "playing THEIR game" to the hilt and applying for X no of jobs each week.'

 

Yes, you've just got to do it!

Edited September 3, 2009 by FitzWilliam

[FitzWilliam]

Thanks Gilliana,

 

I'm glad my advice was helpful.

 

You will have to excuse my little side argument with Insyder!

 

Keep us up to date with what happens next. I think your thread could have a happy ending when you tell us you've got a new job.

[FitzWilliam]

You do not have apply for two jobs a fortnight or any amount of jobs.

 

I challenge anyone to try this at their local jobcentre and see what happens.

 

You will be stuffed big time!

[Guest]

i totally agree......theyre at best a bunch of clowns.