Excessive Charges * * WON * *

[Dammam]

Their time is almost up. Good luck.

 

Thought I'd bump this to the top as the timeline of events should be useful for any newcomers to read through and understand what's involved. Like most of us, I'd imagine not many wish to trawl through 3 pages of posts to find this one (especially as some seem to still not be reading the FAQ).

[PrincessAphrodite]

Hi All,

 

Sorry I haven't written in a while - Me and Mrplan74 have been on holiday for a week lol!

 

I haven't had a chance to go through recent paperwork etc - apart from to briefly run my eyes over a copy of Lloyds TSB defence from their Solicitor which arrived while we were away.

 

I only arrived back late last night so am jet lagged and back at work today already (what a trooper!) so will post the latest info tomorrow when I have caught up.

 

MODS - Do the mods want a copy of Lloyds' defence?

 

A sleepy princess ZZZzzz

[cajdad]

Don't know about the mods but I bet a lot of members would like to see what a defence looks like. Could you post an anonymised version?

[monkey_uk]

MODS - Do the mods want a copy of Lloyds' defence?

 

Yes please. Please scan and email a copy to research@bankactiongroup.co.uk

[Dammam]

If you've got the defence, then the settlement offer can only be days away.

[Krystyna]

Hope you have good news and they settle it wont feel so bad going back to work then

 

Krystyna

[PrincessAphrodite]

deleted.

[paulson1985]

Hi Princess,

 

 

 

Hope youve had a lovely break. So exactly what is happening with our friends Lloyds it seens to me they are dragging this out. Ive just heard something interesting today in my local shopping mall.

 

 

Two old ladies with letters (I recognised the letters) from our friends, They were obviously upset about something Its my guess they had taken money from their account they could not afford. I did not know what to say to them being two elderly ladies. Is there no limit to what they will do.

[HD]

So they are claiming that bouncing payments is a service. Mmmmm.

[Dammam]

Standard defence. I'm surprised you've not received a settlement letter yet.

Poor devils must be busy. With the amount of work they have coming in now, they'll have to put their charges up to pay for it all.

[ChelseaGirl]

This is so interesting, thanks for keeping us all up to date Princess Aphrodite. My claim is going through and you are a few steps ahead of me so it is really good to see what they are going to do next!! Wish you well and hope that it goes through smoothly for you.

[cajdad]

 

4. There is no breach of contract; the charge cannot therefore be a penalty, consequently there is no requirement that the charge be a pre-estimate of the Bank's loss.

 

8.1 the charges are for banking services, and are not damages nor a penalty;

Thanks, Princess.

 

Most of the defence is irrelevant waffle about the charges being open, fair, and in accordance with the contract - we now know that doesn't mean they are legal! But the above points would be a bit worrying if the case actually went to court, since, if there is no breach of contract, or if they've actually provided a 'service' (eg informing the customer that his direct debit had bounced), then there is no breach of the UTCCR - at least that's what the judge might say?

 

So, how do we respond?

[PrincessAphrodite]

Thanks you all for your comments! I had a lovely break - thank you!

 

I am glad that this latest info is helping you all, I need to research this a bit further to understand fully what I am reading from them and for my defence against them (Mrplan74 has already ideas thought up for me to help).

 

PaulClarkson1985 - thank you for the story you overheard - heres another story - my partner Mrplan74 has received a settlement letter from Halifax and was told off the record by the person he was on the phone too at Halifax had SIXTY other letters of settlement to be dealt with and sent out - all revolving around the bank charge issue!! Which is good news for Halifax peeps.

 

Will keep you all posted!

[intersimi]

ADMIN's

 

Is this a standard reply from the court? Is everything going along swimingly??

 

I for one, would like the hear the admin/moderators opinion on this one.

[craigcamuk]

Hi Aphrodite,

You mentioned in your post about a search facility for charged and fees on the online lloyds system.

Can you give me any pointers on where to find this feature?

Cheers

Craig

[Lorraine]

Hi - took me a while to catch up with your story - wow!!!! It has grown since the last time i was here.

I am just starting to file my claim and yes, all the info you have, has been great. Have copied it and will look at it later. After reading your thread, it has just worn me out.

Glad to see that some of you are just ahead of me and have given such wonderous encouragement to the Princess.

 

Good luck and I will keep looking for your updates every day now!!!!!

Lorraine

[dave]

Which Lloyds account was it? Just trying to get hold of the T&C's - just phoned Lloyds to see if I can get a copy - first time they put the phone down - second time, they pointed me at the website. I phoned under the premise of opening an account!!

 

Anyway, check this:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=633

 

If they claim it's a service then the cost of the service has to be reasonable. Not a 10000% mark up...as per the SOGA.

 

Secondly, depending on the wording of their T&C's I would say that to argue it's not a penalty is pretty audacious of them - and brave. I seem to remember the T&C's (vaugely) from Lloyds - and I seem to remember that it mentions a breach of their Terms and Conditions if you don't have sufficient funds - if not it'll be something similar.

 

I'm not saying I don't trust the bank - but if you have a copy of the T&C's which you signed when you opened the account, it might be better to look through those, rather than rely on the bank to provide you with a copy.

 

Also, if anyone has any letters/docs from Lloyds where they state that they are legally entitled to recover their costs - then these would blow their argument out of the water.

 

Please, mention here if you/anyone has any letters from Lloyds like this.

 

Also, don't forget the MacNamara interview in the library - the (ex) head of LloydsTSB admitting that the charges were punitive measures and NOT intended to recover costs.

 

I would imagine once they have been reminded of this interview, they may well settle (well, settle earlier than normal).

[kotum45]

I must have read the sticky posted by bankfodder regarding what happens in court and how the banks might defend 10 times.

As in Princess's case they are saying that "the charges are because of a service they provide". Obviosuly this is BS but I can't figure out how we are going to try to crush this in court. According to the s15 of Services Act (sorry I can't remember the name of the act) "if at the time of the agreement no price has been agreed, the charges have to be reasonable" (again apologies if it is not a 100% quote)

My question is;

-By agreeing the T&C (in which they say they will charge us for return of d/d etc) have we not also agreed the price of charges?

I am sorry I had to ask as this has been bugging me for sometime and I hope the answer (if it is answered) may help princess and everyone else.

[StudentInDebt]

Supply of Goods and Services Act(1982)

15 Implied term about consideration

(1) Where, under a contract for the supply of a service, the consideration for the service is not determined by the contract, left to be determined in a manner agreed by the contract or determined by the course of dealing between the parties, there is an implied term that the party contracting with the supplier will pay a reasonable charge.

(2) What is a reasonable charge is a question of fact.

 

I'm no solicitor, in fact I've no legal training whatsoever but I believe that the "consideration for the service" is the charge and it is not specified in the Terms and Conditions (I think, been trying all afternoon to get a copy of the Lloyds T&Cs for my account). The charge is set out in the charges leaflet which I guess is being "left to be determined in a manner agreed by the contract or determined ...". Therefore the charge must be reasonable.

 

If it is a breach of the T&Cs then in addition to the acts on the site here, I think you could also throw Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co Ltd v New Garage & Motor Co Ltd at them:

The essence of a penalty is a payment of money stipulated as in terrorem of the offending party; the essence of liquidated damages is a genuine covenanted pre-estimate of damage ....

nb. The Latin term "In terrorem" means, in a UK legal context: "as a warning or deterrent."

 

ps the link to the SOGAS act in the library is dead but if you google for it they have a cached version from the link.

[HONESTKNOB]

Princess. If this actually does end up in a courtroom, would you consider using a solicitor for a day to speak for you?

If you did, would you be able to add the charge onto your claim?

If not, then surely the size of the claim still makes it worthwile??

[Mal]

5. The customer is given advance warning of charges being imposed; statements show the charges, if any, the customer has incurred during the course of a month, and which will appear as debits on the following month's statement.

 

That may be the case now but looking through my statments it was the norm to charge at the time back in 2000 and 2001

 

Mal

[Dammam]

ADMIN's

 

Is this a standard reply from the court? Is everything going along swimingly??

 

I for one, would like the hear the admin/moderators opinion on this one.

 

This is the same defence that many of us have received.

The bank settled in all cases that I know of.

[intersimi]

Thanks Dammam, that was the response I was hoping for.

[PrincessAphrodite]

Hi All,

 

Well not much to tell you - have heard nothing from Lloyds or their Solicitors!

 

Today I have posted my Allocation Questionnaire.

 

So I guess I just have to wait now!

[Dammam]

I'm amazed. Looks like they're going to leave it until the last minute.

 

Why don't you email Martineau Johnson a 'courtesy copy', letting them know that your allocation questionnaire has been sent? It may wake them from their slumber.