M&S CCA request? need signature, Confused with SAR?

[WelshMam2009]

A quick update.

 

I have written to M&S again, by way of a CPR 31.16 and have sent a seperate letter to their complaints department.

 

I have sent an email enquiry/complaint to the ICO asking for clarification on the signature stalemate,(still awaiting a response from the ICO)

 

 

Did you get anywhere with this Elg??

[Elgrand]

This was the reply from the ICO

 

Case Reference Number E**********

 

Dear Elg

 

Thank you for your completed complaint form dated 20 May 2009, concerning Marks & Spencer Money.

 

It is my understanding that part of your complaint relates to the fact that Marks & Spencer Money have not responded to your request for a copy of your credit agreement under the Consumer Credit Act (CCA). They appear to be requesting your signature before providing the requested document.

 

It may be helpful to explain that the Information Commissioner regulates and enforces the Data Protection Act 1998 (DPA), amongst other legislation, but we have no involvement in regulating these section(s) of the CCA. The CCA is regulated by the Office of Fair Trading (OFT), so they might be able to assist you in this matter.

If we can be of any further assistance please contact our Helpline on 08456 30 60 60, or 01625 545745 if you would prefer to call a national rate number, quoting your case reference number.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Case Officer

[Reader]

Hi Elgrand, yes I had exactly the same problem with signature etc. Now I basically have one side of an application form which they insist is the agreement. I have sent a request under CPR to force their hand.

 

The OFT were not much help to me as they said that M&S could take me to court but I have sent another letter back saying that how can an application form be an agreement? ...waiting for their response.

 

The FOS advised me to contact the ICO as they should have sent a cca via a SAR request, but wating for them to get back to me as they seem inundated.

 

Not sure what to do next except wait...

 

Thanks Reader

[Elgrand]

Hi Reader

 

The ICO took a long time to get back to me over my Marbles SAR, so i kept adding to my case file with them, each time i wrote another letter and they eventually got Marbles to at least respond just recently.

 

Elg.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Elgrand
typo

[Reader]

Thanks Elg, good idea I will do that.

 

Cheers

Reader

[Elgrand]

Hi All,

 

I'm gobsmacked, today i have just received my CCA by recorded delivery. I will post up all the details later.

 

Elg.

[Elgrand]

Here's the letter.

 

[Elgrand]

Here's the application

 

[Elgrand]

The Application is one sided, dated 2004 and from what i can see, it does not link to any T&C's.

 

They have sent seperate T&C's and i will post them up next.

 

Elg.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Elgrand
added text

[Elgrand]

I believe are meant to be the old T&C's

 

Application 2004

 

 

[Elgrand]

They also sent what looks like the current terms.

[WelshMam2009]

I don't believe that's going to be enforceable Elg.

 

The application form itself doesn't appear to contain any prescribed terms (as far as I can tell) and the t&c's are on 2 separate sheets.

 

Hence, there they have not supplied a document which contains a signature and prescribed terms "within 4 corners."

 

I don't see how they can claim that the application form doubles up as an agreement, particularly as it is not headed as such (this would permit multiple pages).

 

Also, there appears to be a staple mark (front & back) through the t&c's which is not evident on the application form, which suggests to me that these were separate documents.

 

Hope this helps...suspect this is why they have delayed sending these agreements out under the CCA requests!!

[Elgrand]

Thank you WelshMam

 

I believe you are correct about the application form.

 

The T&C's were just A4 copies, stapled together as you have pointed out and printed on one side only. You can just see on the top right hand corner something that looks like 2004 hand written but only partially in view.

 

The letter they have sent, with the excuse they have given is a direct contradiction of their arguments not to provide it without a signature.

 

I DID NOT send a signature at all.

 

Now that they have sent me that, i am just going to sit tight for a couple of days, digest a few things and see what happens.

 

Elg.

[Reader]

Hi Elg, this is exactly what I keep getting.

 

Even with a SAR request in the letter it said please find enclosed your application form etc! I keep telling them I don't want an application form but they just don't listen, they believe that this a legally enforceable document!

 

They are a class act. NOT

 

Reader

[Elgrand]

Hi Reader,

 

IMO, I don't beleive they have anything else to send me, considering the time it's taken so far to find it.

I also believe they aware about it not being enforceable and will not be in too much of a hurry to say so. They will be hoping i don't know otherwise.

 

Elg.

[equinox747]

hi,just like to put my twopennies worth in, i too have had two similar request for signatures, one from RBS and another from HSBC, both presumably have not got the signed true copy of agreement, 'cause let's face it if they have why not send requested documents, stop all the faffing about and then they could start collecting !! but really appreciate this thread, I'm not even going to bother bouncing it back and forth, just going straight to court with it. why not nothing too lose? they make the errors in the first place. No wonder tax peoples money had to bail them out, and they're still spending it willy nilly...

[Elgrand]

Hi equinox747,

 

Thank you for your post

 

Your right IMO regarding the time wasting these companies put us through in not complying with these requests, but i also think its tactical and part of their process.

 

As far as the bouncing back and forth goes, i think there will be some value in my case as they contradict themselves and when it goes to court i can hopefully use it to my advantage.

 

We need a signature?

No its alright, we've found it now?

 

Elg.

[equinox747]

Hi elgrand,

had second thoughts about bouncing back and forth, and i agree with you it's worth it just for support when we do go to court:

cheers

will keep this thread informed: oh just had another letter from HSBC saying they want a signature to compare with the one they already have: so am i right in thinking that there is NO legislation which says we have to provide a signature: i have read somewhere in these threads that if the ICO can state that if a creditor has been writing to the person concerned in the past then it's safe to assume that this is the correct person they are writing to. as i am now thinking about signature Guard but wonder if that's safe?

[Elgrand]

Hi equinox747,

 

Interesting quote from GhostDebt

 

There is no legal requirement to sign a subject access request.

Check Information Commissioners Office website to read their guidelines.

However they will probably reply saying it hasn't been signed and to sign it.

Best bet is to use a digital signature or an anti tamper signature.

Some other caggers have said to slightly make your signature different, smaller or in a different font and to see if anything comes back with the same signature on it.

some others have said to include a utility bill as proof of who you say you are.

 

The quote from the ICO is

 

Data Protection Good Practice Note: Checklist for handling requests for personal information (subject access requests) issued by the Information Commissioner’s Office. Section 2 states Do you have enough information to be sure of the requester’s identity? Often you will have no reason to doubt a person’s identity. For example, if a person with whom you have regular contact sends a letter from their known address it may be safe to assume they are who they say they are.

Hope this helps:)

 

Elg.

[Elgrand]

M&S have just sent me a third letter demanding full payment of the balance, so i will await termination

 

Edited September 25, 2009 by Elgrand
jumped the gun, still not terminated??

[Elgrand]

This is now the third Final Demand letter for the full payment of the balance

 

Each one the same except the balance etc.

 

Each time with the threatening, calling at your home theme included, it's your responsibility to telephone and no further reminders will be sent

 

The two letters from PLR both carry those threats as well.

 

Just standard letters i know.

[WelshMam2009]

This is now the third Final Demand letter for the full payment of the balance

 

Each one the same except the balance etc.

 

Each time with the threatening, calling at your home theme included, it's your responsibility to telephone and no further reminders will be sent

 

The two letters from PLR both carry those threats as well.

 

Just standard letters i know.

 

We're all somewhat at the creditor's mercy Elg until they either pursue these agreements via the courts or the debt becomes statute barred.

 

In the intervening period, they'll keep on with the psychological war fare in the hope we'll all eventually see the error of our ways and cough up some cash for their annual bonuses!!

[angel_1]

hello Elgrand thanks for posting on my m and s threads

 

im subbing here on yours just to catch up with you

 

have a sunny day laters angel x

[Deb T]

I've a similar issue but with a reserve account, they provided my signature on the agrrement in my links but it's an applciation form...not an agreement and I can't see any prescribed terms and the rest you'll find in my post.....all rather bizarre....and I had the same letter demanding money etc..

 

My post is here

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/224309-m-cashing-sars-but.html

[Elgrand]

Hi Deb T.

 

I have read your thread and i had the exact same problem with marbles cashing my 10 pound for a SAR and not complying.

I did eventually contact the ICO and complained and after a long period of time, they managed to get Marbles to comply.

 

Elg.