Scrapper vs MBNA Potential Commencement of legal proceedings***WON***

[angel_1]

hiya Scrapper

 

wow well what a result on mbna and now what is going on with bcard>>?

 

 

thanks for the update, its an interesting angle to look at but the more i read the more i learn so thanks for the info

 

im getting chased by dca's at the moment but at the moment trying to juggle a few balls around the place legal and life its getting too soon for xmas too

 

so i think new year will be more focus for me, at the moment battling halifax with those 1.00 a day overdraft charge so having to pay 31 a month for that privelege and before was only paying around 17 so unless i clear it i will be around 170 worse off next year!

 

got a thread on it now too

 

anyway keep happy and congratulations i will sit down and refresh myself on your journey on this and note down some points for me to consider

 

cheers have a fun day with the family laters angel x:)

[NPMBNA]

Hi Scrapper,

 

I've been reading through your thread and am hoping for a bit of a result similar to yours.

 

I requested a CCA on the 19th October and sent a follow up letter 16th November . I have heard nothing except from Global Vantedge who are chasing a payment (after they didn't respond to my CCA request I didn't pay) they are calling on a daily basis.

 

Do you have any advice on what should be my next step? I'm pretty certain they wouldn't have an agreement as I took the card out with National & Provincial around 15 years ago.

I would like them to admit there is no agreement and hopefully not have to pay. Any advice?

 

Thanks

[Scrapper]

Hi NPMBNA

 

If you took out the agreement that long ago I very much doubt that they have a copy as one of the not so helpful d*ckheads at MBNA told me they used to destroy everything after 6 years including all taped phone calls until this CCA thingy raised it's ugly head. I took mine out about 17yrs ago.

 

I'm not a legal expert, but as I worked in IT I seem to remember that you are required by law to keep all documentation and recordings for up to 6 years after an account has closed and if the account is active you aren't supposed to destroy anything.

 

I think the thing that swung it for me was that I would never back down. They kept sending threat after threat and all the time I just kept my cool (was hard sometimes) and just kept saying take me to court.

 

They would pass it to one DCA (RMA) and I'd CCA them and they'd hand it back to MBNA. Then they'd pass to another DCA and I'd CCA them and they'd send it back. Hopefully you are getting the picture.

 

Then I sent them an SAR which they returned as I hadn’t dated the cheque. The check of it all. I ask you. Whats a man supposed to do. When they got round to sending it back it was my Statements only and a lovely letter advising that due to archive retrieval issues they couldn't supply me a copy of my CCA, but have the T&C's instead.

 

So I sent them another CCA request just to p*ss them off. I did keep paying token payments though just in case it went to court.

 

So I reported them to the ICO and FOS. Still haven't had a response from them either. Apart from they are investigating the issue. A bit late fellas I’ve sorted it myself. Bloody useless all of them.

 

 

While waiting for their next move I just kept sending CCA after CCA along with copies of the entire CCA regulations and with a highlighter I marked all the areas they had failed to comply with.

 

Then finally they admitted that they didn't have a copy so I went in for the kill and did a deal with them so I could get on with my life.

 

I think paying £3000 of a £17,000 debt is a nice result and my advice would be to just keep on at them no matter how hard it gets and you wanting to throw in the towel. Trust me I have wanted to just give it all up on many occasion. And that is what they are trying to do. Wear you down so much that in the end you give in. Once they realise you want be a push over they are more than happy to cut their losses and harass the next person into giving up. Just reverse the mind games on them. If they haven't got a copy they will soon get sick of you if you just stick to your guns and NEVER EVER back down.

 

On a more serious note I don’t think it will be long before someone takes their own life because of these no good stinking **** of the earth vultures due to the way they behave and something needs to be done about it.

 

They were happy enough to lend the money in the good times and keep upping limits so people could get further and further in debt so it partly their doing that people can’t repay them now so they should be abit more compassionate towards the true victims of all this b*llocks instead of acting like fecking nazi’s

 

And the joke of it all is the IT MAY AFFECT YOUR CREDIT FILE FOR UPTO 6 YEARS. What a laugh they were lending to people who were bankrupt. Not once but two or three times over and I know that for a fact. Didn’t bother them then.

 

Sorry ranting again

 

Still got a one more to deal with, but then that’s it for me. No more debt and I’ll be fecked if I ever get another credit card again.

 

The other good news is that I had PPI on my other 3 cards and as of next month they will have been paid in full. Total of £21,000 paid by the insurance company. And when they are done they are getting closed down same day the last payment is made.

 

Being made redundant turned into a god send when I think about it.

 

 

I hope this has help you a bit, but I just used the usual stuff off of here. I'm no legal expert and to be honest I just chanced ny arm. It could have gone horribly wrong, but I got lucky with then admitting twice they didn't have a copy. Almost forgot the admitted over the phone as well.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

Scrapper Coco

Edited December 7, 2009 by Scrapper

[Scrapper]

And another thing never ever destroy anything they send you and send everything you send them recorded just in case. And if you can record all phone calls. You can purchase a number from Skpye and it has it's own build in recorder which comes in very useful.

[NPMBNA]

Thanks Scrapper thats all very useful. YOu say you made the odd token payment????? why if you're not legally obliged to? as I thought you weren't once they'd defaulted on the account. I'm panicking now as I've missed two months payments (since they defaulted) always paid up to date before that.

Also you say you sent CCA after CCA, did they cash the £1 cheque every time you sent them?

As they have defaulted can I now report them to the Financial Ombudsman? just to get things moving I simply haven't got the time to drag things out with this really.

They passed my info to Global Vantedge after I missed the first payment I tell them every time they ring (from India) that MBNA have defaulted therefore I am not legally obliged to pay anything until my request is met, is this correct? From the information on this site, I thought so.

Did you write to ombudsman? do you know of a template letter I could use to report them?

 

Sorry for all the questions, just really want to get things moving. I like to claim all my interest back, as with no agreement I havent' agreed to interest. So I like to claim that (not really, just don't want to have to pay whats owing) Is there a letter for this, as maybe they would take my letters more seriously if they think I am making a claim against them.

 

Thanks again, I'm so glad your debts are nearly all gone thats a really great result.

[Scrapper]

Hi NPMBAN

 

I paid them as normal until the defaulted on my CCA request then I made token payments just keep things all above board just in case they came up with the agreement and took me to court. Then I could at least argue that I was perfetly within my rights.

 

I believe that once they have default on your CCA request then you can stop paying them. I say believe as I'm not a legal expert, but I do know of someone who is using a solicitor and once they defaulted on the request he was advised to stop payment immediatley. That being the case I wouldn't worry about it to much.

 

I am suprised that they have passed it to a DCA after only 2 missed payments. From what I have learned on here it usually takes around 6 months for them to pass it on. Perhaps they have changed their game plan.

 

Everytime I sent them a CCA request YES I did include a postal order for £1 and they put it towards the debt everytime. They did however pass it on towards the end to a couple of DCA's and they all backed off once I sent them a CCA Request.

 

What I would advise you to do is send them a SAR which costs £10. Make sure it's a postal order and not a cheque with your signature on it as some people on here seem to think that MBNA are quite happy to do a cut and paste job and produce an agreement from nowhere.

 

With an SAR they have to send you everything they hold on you under the Data Protection Act and that includes your original agreement. That's when they made their first error with me as they told me in the covering letter that DUR TO ARCHIVE RETRIEVAL ISSUES they didn't have it. For me that was GAME ON.

 

Send them this letter

 

DATA PROTECTION ACT 1998

SUBJECT ACCESS REQUEST

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: 0123 4567 8910 1112

 

I understand that you currently hold details of my personal and financial information within your internal record systems with regard to personal credit cards.

 

Please supply me with a complete list of transaction and charges relating to my history with your organisation, INCLUDING credit cards and payment protection insurance. Alternatively a complete set of statements for the accounts or associated accounts is acceptable.

 

To clarify, I would be grateful if you would provide the following for the credit card account I have with your organisation, details as below:

 

- Full copies of all contracts which you believe exist or have existed between myself and your organisation, including true copies of any original documents and their original associated terms and conditions you hold in support of the same. I wish to make it plain I do not require or want any blank/generic documents, but only actual copies of signed documents and their associated terms etc. If you no longer hold these, or can not fulfil my legal request in any other way, I require you to inform me of this in writing, including the reasons for not supplying anything mentioned, or for supplying anything that varies from the specific format I have requested.

 

- A complete list of all transactions or statements relating to my credit card account held with your organisation.

 

- Hourly rate of each member of staff involved with each administration of the fees / charges. The time each member of staff spent on the administration of the fees/charges. Details of the work carried out and completed by each member of staff involved with each administration of the fees/charges. Total cost of the paper, envelopes, ink, and postage of each automated and manually written letter relevant to the issuing of the fees/charges, and any other costs incurred in each fee/charge including other employee’s involvement, their hourly rate, time spent on the involvement, and what their involvement consisted of.

 

 

- Copies of all documents which include any of my personal information including copies of any contacts or invoices, emails or computer records containing my personal information, or any records which pertain to this information.

 

- Full copies or transcripts of any correspondence in postal, email, telephone or any other format which you have entered into with me, or any other individual, organisation or third party which contains my personal or financial, or which pertains to me.

 

- Where any previous information or records held have been deleted or disposed of, the methods used to do so, including dates, certificates or references confirming details of destruction. Where you are unable to provide such certificates, please provide a declaration, signed by an authorised officer of your company, confirming the dates and methods of destruction of this data.

 

- Full hard copy print outs of my personal or financial information, held in a digital, magnetic or any other format which is held in any archives, backups or other storage devices / locations.

 

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. Furthermore, if I discover that you have levied disproportionate penalties against me, then I shall be reclaiming them, and also reclaiming the enclosed £10 Data Protection Act subject access request fee.

IF YOU UNABLE TO DEAL WITH ANY PART OF THIS REQUEST, YOU SHOULD IMMEDIATELY FORWARD IT TO THE PERSON WITHIN YOUR ORGANISATION RESPONSIBLE FOR DATA PROCECTION.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in the first instance of receipt.

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

 

Enc. £10.00 Postal Order

__________________

 

When they default on that as well then I would write to the ICO, FOS and TS making a serious complaint.

 

You can get their details online and send your complaint that way. I can't remember the web addresses off the top of my head, but I look them up and post them here for you later today.

 

As for the friendly Indian CALL CENTRE I really wouldn't worry about it as they are all hot air and you can dismiss them pretty quickly. If I was you I'd ask for their address and send them a CCA. They'll bugger off then as they are part of the MBNA Organisation as far as I can remember.

 

 

Also send them this letter as this will stop all the calls you are getting

 

Account No: 0123 4567 8910 1112

 

Dear Sirs

I am writing in relation to the quantity and frequency of telephone calls that I have received from your company, which, I personally deem, to be harassment.

 

I have verbally requested that these calls stop, but I am still receiving.

 

I have made it quite clear that due to this account being in serious dispute I require all further correspondence from your company to be made in writing only.

 

I am of the view that your continued harassment of me, by telephone, puts you in breach of Section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 and the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

 

I require you to remove all contact numbers from your system immediately as you no longer have my permission to hold them.

 

If you continue to harass me by telephone, you will also be in breach of the Communications Act (2003) s.127 and I will report you to, FOS, OFCOM, Trading Standards, The Office of Fair Trading & the Police, meaning that you will be liable to a substantial fine and even prosecution.

Please be advised that all future telephone calls from your company will be recorded.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

AND REMEMBER DON@T EVER SIGN ANYTHING YOU SEND TO THEM.

 

 

Hope that helps

 

Thanks

 

Scrapper Coco

 

 

Have you sent them the account is in dispute letter yet?

 

if not send them this

 

Account No: 0123 4567 8910 1112

Dear Sir/Madam

 

I do not acknowledge ANY debt to your company. You have now failed to supply me with a copy of the original signed agreement for the alleged “debt” and the full breakdown of the account including any interest or charges applied you are trying to enforce. This request was sent on 21/12/2008 together with the statutory fee of £1.00.

 

I have given you more than enough time to supply the original signed agreement and you have now exceeded the allowed time. By not supplying the documentation I believe you have now committed a criminal act under the legislation contained within section 77 (1) and section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

You are reminded that you were obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not, under section 189 of the CCA 1974.

 

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

 

I will therefore no longer be making payments against this "debt" as it is unenforceable. I now consider the matter closed and no further correspondence regarding payment will be entered into. If you persist on pursuing payment you will have left me no choice but to report this matter to Trading Standards

 

 

 

Yours Faithfully,

Edited December 9, 2009 by Scrapper

[Scrapper]

Sorry it goes on abit, but I want to make sure you cover everything and miss nothing out which could affect you.

 

Thanks

 

Scrapper Coco

[lexis200]

Thanks Scrapper thats all very useful. YOu say you made the odd token payment????? why if you're not legally obliged to?As Scrapper says it's just to help you along should it ever get to court. As far as MBNA are concerned though token payment or refusal to pay is all the same and will end the same way. as I thought you weren't once they'd defaulted on the account. I'm panicking now as I've missed two months payments (since they defaulted) always paid up to date before that.

Also you say you sent CCA after CCA, did they cash the £1 cheque every time you sent them?

As they have defaulted can I now report them to the Financial Ombudsman? You need to wait for their final response or for 8 weeks to pass if they don't issue one. just to get things moving I simply haven't got the time to drag things out with this really. Then the FOS is not what you want to be doing as they will take months to even consider your case, let alone offer a decision.

They passed my info to Global Vantedge after I missed the first payment I tell them every time they ring (from India) that MBNA have defaulted therefore I am not legally obliged to pay anything until my request is met, is this correct?Yes but it will not make a blind bit of difference to them - especially the lot in India. They have a script to follow and will ignore anything you say that is off that script. Best just to say you do not discuss financial matters over the phone and to put everything in writing. Also remember to log date/time/contents of every call you get for any complaints. From the information on this site, I thought so.

Did you write to ombudsman? do you know of a template letter I could use to report them?

 

Sorry for all the questions, just really want to get things moving. I like to claim all my interest back, as with no agreement I havent' agreed to interest. So I like to claim that (not really, just don't want to have to pay whats owing) Is there a letter for this, as maybe they would take my letters more seriously if they think I am making a claim against them.

 

Thanks again, I'm so glad your debts are nearly all gone thats a really great result.

 

If they're calling from India I would suggest writing to MBNA and asking exactly how your data is being protected if your account details have been sent over there. India does not have to follow the same data protection rules as the UK - after OH's was passed over there we started getting spam calls from the US. I queried this with MBNA and never heard a peep from India again.

[NPMBNA]

thanks so much scrapper. I've sent the account in dispute letter already, which they chose to ignore along with everything else. My CCA request had a cheque signed by my husband so that they didn't have my signature.

I only missed payments once they defaulted on my CCA, however they have still added default charges of £12 for one missed payment.

 

Thanks

[Scrapper]

They shouldn't be adding and interest or late payment charges while the account is in dispute, but trust me they WILL and they really don't care about the rules or regulations. They are a law unto themselves.

 

They only time they sit up and take notice is if you really start to harass them they way I did or you report them.

 

I really won't worry about a thing at the moment. No agreement not a leg to stand on FULL STOP.

 

Have they registered you credit file as defaulted yet?

 

If they haven't and you can afford it? I would suggest making token payments, because as long as your paying them something they can't wreck your credit file. (They Will Anyway Trust Me, but at least you can argue you did everything in your power to resolve the issue and they ignored you) But make sure they are aware you are only making these payments as a good will gesture until they either produce your CCA or they admit they have got it.

 

Doe's that make sense?

 

Thanks

 

Scrapper Coco

[Scrapper]

Thanks Lexis.

 

I know what I wan't to say, but it never comes out that way when I write it down

[Dotty50]

Congratulations on your result.

 

It's so good to hear another successful story from someone fighting MBNA.

 

Dotty

[Scrapper]

Has anyone got a copy of a CCA from 1998? or pre 2006?

 

The reason I ask a mate of mine has been trying the same tatic as me and getting nowhere then after employing a solicitor MBNA have all of a sudden produced an agreement out of thin air after a year of requests being made and him being ignored.

 

I have a feeling it is a cut and paste job by the master photoshop guy at IT Central round at MBNA, but he will need something to compare it to when he gets the copy he's requested from the brief.

 

What I can't understand is WHY all of a sudden it has appeared when they could have saved him all the hassle and cost when he requested it from the start.

 

Thanks

 

Scrapper Coco

[Dotty50]

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/609-mbna-agreementsapplication-forms

 

Hi Scrapper,

 

Take a look here, there's a lot but it may help you find what you are looking for.

 

Dotty

[vint1954]

Has anyone got a copy of a CCA from 1998? or pre 2006?

 

The reason I ask a mate of mine has been trying the same tatic as me and getting nowhere then after employing a solicitor MBNA have all of a sudden produced an agreement out of thin air after a year of requests being made and him being ignored.

 

I have a feeling it is a cut and paste job by the master photoshop guy at IT Central round at MBNA, but he will need something to compare it to when he gets the copy he's requested from the brief.

 

What I can't understand is WHY all of a sudden it has appeared when they could have saved him all the hassle and cost when he requested it from the start.

 

Thanks

 

Scrapper Coco

Yes, they came up with a signed application form from 1998 after 7 months chasing, however the prescribed terms were on a separate much smaller document. Optima beleive that they stand a good chance in court:rolleyes:.

 

Post the agreement up, minus details.

[Scrapper]

Hi Vint.

 

When he gets it I'll make sure I put it up here for everyone to have a look at as I'm not convinced it will even be correct if it is his.

 

Makes you wonder what they are playing at though. Surely it would save everyone time and hassle if they just sent them out when requested if they have them?

 

Or are they playing silly games and chancing their arm by forging them considering the amount of disputes they must have at the moment.

 

How do Optima think they have a case with you then?

 

Thanks

 

Scrapper Coco

[vint1954]

Hi Vint.

 

When he gets it I'll make sure I put it up here for everyone to have a look at as I'm not convinced it will even be correct if it is his.

 

Makes you wonder what they are playing at though. Surely it would save everyone time and hassle if they just sent them out when requested if they have them?

 

Or are they playing silly games and chancing their arm by forging them considering the amount of disputes they must have at the moment.

 

How do Optima think they have a case with you then?

 

Thanks

 

Scrapper Coco

I think that they know they are on sticky ground with their agreements. They send anything to try and put you off the scent. The small document containing prescribed terms, is just about the same for all agreements, meaning that if your agreement is A4 size, then two thirds of the reverse would be blank. This never happens in business.

 

The problem is that s78 is designed to supply a debtor with information, not a copy of their signed agreement. The OFT view is that if they do not have the agreement, they cannot be sure that what they are sending is a true copy:) The CCC's know that they can fob people off for a while with poor documents. However, the first recostruction that you get from MBNA, is proved to be totally inacurate when they send a copy of what is supposed to be the original. Most of MBNA's agreements were scanned then shredded.

 

I have pointed out the error of Optimas ways to them, but they can obviously make fees out of MBNA. They don't work on a no win no fee basis.

[Scrapper]

Sorry Vint you lost me at

 

"meaning that if your agreement is A4 size, then two thirds of the reverse would be blank. This never happens in business."

 

Thanks

 

Scrapper Coco

[Scrapper]

Morning

 

Got a copy of my mates CCA and I'll post it shortly, but I can't even read the copy is that bad. So don't know if posting it will be of any help.

 

They have also sent statements and the balance is £0 with a credit on stating CHARGE-OFF ADJUSTMENT. Anyone know what that is?

 

Also the Terms they sent are current as they have the £12 late payment fee listed and this card was taken out in 1997 so they are definatley not the terms for what he signed for. The covering letter states the up to date terms and conditions

 

Thanks

 

Scrapper Coco

[Scrapper]

And another thing

 

The charge off is dated 30th Oct, but he received a letter on the 13th November dated the 9th of November stating that unless he paid the arrears by the 26th November he would be defaulted. They actually defaulted the account with the CRA on the day he received the letter the 13th.

 

Does that make a difference.

 

This agreement is such bad quality I can hardly read it without hurting my eyes and even then I really cant make any of it out.

 

Thanks

 

Scrapper Coco

 

Scan is on it's way

Edited December 12, 2009 by Scrapper

[Scrapper]

Well he are the scans. I tried my best to adjust the quality, but they are just crap copies.

 

I have noticed the following

 

 

1. MBNA Gold Advantage Card - Shouldn't it say Credit Card Agreement?
   
2. No Credit Limit included
   
3. No Default Charges included
   

And apart from the fact you'd need the hubble telescope to read I can't actually see how it could be enforceable unless they produced either original or a 1000 times better copy that you can actually read.

 

I might be wrong, but all comments welcome.

 

It's being dealt with by a solicitor so it would interesting to get different opinions if possible.

 

Thanks

 

Scrapper Coco

[Scrapper]

http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp284/djackson29/LastScan1.jpg

 

http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp284/djackson29/LastScan2.jpg

 

http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp284/djackson29/LastScan3.jpg

 

http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp284/djackson29/LastScan4.jpg

 

http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp284/djackson29/LastScan5.jpg

 

 

Sorry about that

[Scrapper]

I also can't see anything about registering his details with a CRA which is another breach in itself not that I can read the thing.

 

Also seems to be a date stamp on the T&C's that says **-8-97 but can't be sure.

 

He didn't sign it till the September so how can it be stamped August?

 

Scrapper Coco

[amber]

Scrapper

 

Regarding 'Charge/Charging Off' this is the advice Vint kindly gave me.

 

Charging off is simply closing the account so that they can claim bad debt releif against Tax. They then sell the debt on to a third party, who then chase you for the debt. This has nothing to do with a Charging Order.

 

Amber

[amber]

I also can't see anything about registering his details with a CRA which is another breach in itself not that I can read the thing.

 

Also seems to be a date stamp on the T&C's that says **-8-97 but can't be sure.

 

He didn't sign it till the September so how can it be stamped August?

 

Scrapper Coco

 

On the link 'lastscan2' there is a date stamp of November 1997, which clearly doesn't tie in with the date on your T&C's. Also, the size of the supposed front and back of the CCA differs, looks a bit iffy to me. Wait until Vint comes along and takes a look, x