Next Digital Signatures on CCA

[blind-as-a-bat]

If they have admitted they do not have a signed agreemant then i see no reason why you cant send it, the contents of there letter re-sec 78 and not having to supply an exact copy is true, but if they want to now claim a contract exists that they can assign i would suggest you request they provide the proof, as you have already been told they dont have one, just to clear the matter up;-)

[cadencealex]

Thanks, I sent the letter and am prepared to take them to Court. I do owe this money, so am not defrauding them.

 

Should I start paying more off the actual bill - will this help in my defence?

[cadencealex]

Received this letter!

 

[blind-as-a-bat]

Thats just there standard reply, i have one the same.

 

The thing is they are threatening to something that does require a signed contract, you now want proof they can do what they have threatened and assign the account to a third party, that is outside the CCA and more to do with the law of contracts and data protection;)

 

Having said that, doubt they will see it that way, i am still waiting for a reply to mine:rolleyes:

[cadencealex]

Thats just there standard reply, i have one the same.

 

The thing is they are threatening to something that does require a signed contract, you now want proof they can do what they have threatened and assign the account to a third party, that is outside the CCA and more to do with the law of contracts and data protection;)

 

Having said that, doubt they will see it that way, i am still waiting for a reply to mine:rolleyes:

 

 

I sent your very scary letter and have not received a response... I felt so worried about the consequences though after sending that letter!!

 

NB - I just read on another forum that people are complaining to the Financial Ombudsman and receiving full payouts on bank charges!!!

 

I am wondering whether to contact them about Next? What do you think Batty?

[blind-as-a-bat]

To be honest they are less helpfull when it comes to matters regarding CCA's or so i am led to believe.

 

Just one thought, if you took the agreemant out pre 2005, it may be worth posting the agreement they sent, the wording needed in an agreemant changed in may 2005, may be a way to trap them if it has the new wording:rolleyes:

[cadencealex]

To be honest they are less helpfull when it comes to matters regarding CCA's or so i am led to believe.

 

Just one thought, if you took the agreemant out pre 2005, it may be worth posting the agreement they sent, the wording needed in an agreemant changed in may 2005, may be a way to trap them if it has the new wording:rolleyes:

 

 

I will post it up

 

Although it is very small.. I wonder if I can get photobucket magnified.

 

Did they send you a blank set too?

 

 

 

Which bit are you most interested in?

 

 

The final bit I accidentally chopped has a signature from William Barnes, Company Secretary.

Edited February 10, 2009 by cadencealex

[cadencealex]

IMPORTANT - YOU SHOULD READ THIS CAREFULLY, YOUR RIGHTS.

 

The Consumer Credit Act 1974 covers this agreement and lays down certain requirements for your protection which must be satisfied when the Agreement is made. If they are not, the creditor cannot enforce this agreement against you without a Court Order. The Act also gives you a number of rights. You have the right to settle this Agreement at any time by giving notice in writing and paying off all amounts payable under this Agreement. If you have obtained unsatisfactory goods or services under a transaction financed by this you may have a right to sue the supplier, the creditor or both. Similarly, if the contract is not fulfilled, perhaps because the supplier has gone out of business you may still be able to sue the creditor. If you would like to know more about the protection and remedies provided under the Act, you should contact either your local Trading Standards Department or your nearest Citizens Advice Bureau.

 

THIS IS A CREDIT AGREEMENT REGULATED BY THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974, SIGN IT ONLY IF YOU WANT TO BE LEGALLY BOUND BY ITS TERMS.

 

 

That's the bit I chopped off!

[blind-as-a-bat]

I dont think that agreement conform's to the Consumer Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983, while the proscribed terms are there, i think, it would be unenforceable without a court order anyway, and does not conform to the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations1983 because it does not contain the correct notices in the correct wording, such as your liabilaty if the card is missused without your permision, cancelation right's ect so does not meet the requirements of sec 3 even as a 'true copy'

 

I was hoping it may contain this phrase

 

MISSING PAYMENTS

Missing payments could have severe consequences and make

obtaining credit more difficult.

 

that is a dead givaway the agreement is post 31 May 2005 as it did not have to be there until then

[cadencealex]

I dont think that agreement conform's to the Consumer Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983, while the proscribed terms are there, i think, it would be unenforceable without a court order anyway, and does not conform to the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations1983 because it does not contain the correct notices in the correct wording, such as your liabilaty if the card is missused without your permision, cancelation right's ect so does not meet the requirements of sec 3 even as a 'true copy'

 

I was hoping it may contain this phrase

 

 

 

that is a dead givaway the agreement is post 31 May 2005 as it did not have to be there until then

 

 

I didn't even have a Card with them - it was a catalogue!!

 

I don't know why they have sent me this at all!!!

 

Hmmmm... I wonder!

[blind-as-a-bat]

The agreemant you have does not comply with the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (non amended version if pr may 2005) it is missing the declaration defined in scedule 2 para 3 and arguably should contain para 15 as a credit token may be offered, so i see no reason that should not be included.

[cadencealex]

The agreemant you have does not comply with the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (non amended version if pr may 2005) it is missing the declaration defined in scedule 2 para 3 and arguably should contain para 15 as a credit token may be offered, so i see no reason that should not be included.

 

 

So what should I do? I sent the same letter you sent (the one you PMd me) which gives them 21 days.

 

Should I complain to anyone else?!

 

What set of guff did you receive, relating to terms and conditions?

[blind-as-a-bat]

3 General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument

or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act

shall be a true copy thereof.

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy--

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor,

hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the

Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed

agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of the signature by the debtor of an

agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

© in the case of any copy of an unexecuted agreement delivered or sent to the debtor or hirer under section 62 of

the Act, the name and address of the debtor or hirer; and

[(d) in the case of any copy of an executed agreement given to the debtor under section 77(1) of the Act for fixedsum

credit, or under section 78(1) for running-account credit, under which a person takes any articles in pawn, any

description of the article taken in pawn.]

 

Useing there own argument against them, because bits that must be there as stated by any 'Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;' Are missing, the copy does not satisefy the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983, therefore does not satisfy your CCA request:D

[blind-as-a-bat]

So what should I do? I sent the same letter you sent (the one you PMd me) which gives them 21 days.

 

Should I complain to anyone else?!

 

What set of guff did you receive, relating to terms and conditions?

 

I got a blank agreemant too

 

[cadencealex]

Useing there own argument against them, because bits that must be there as stated by any 'Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;' Are missing, the copy does not satisefy the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983, therefore does not satisfy your CCA request:D

 

 

So what do I do now? I sent this to them on Saturday:

 

Dear Lynne Williams

I refer to your letter dated 28th January 2009. You sent me a set of generic terms and conditions without my signature.

Formal Complaint

 

It is in your company’s interest to read carefully, and act correctly, to the contents of this correspondence to avoid possible future legal action being taken against your company.

 

 

If you do not understand the contents of this correspondence and the legal implications for your company, I suggest you seek professional advice immediately.

 

 

 

Turning to the other matter stated in your communication, apparently the alleged account and I quote ‘is being prepared for sale to an external Debt Collection Agency who post this sale will legally own the debt.’

 

For another company to legally own any debt Next Directory would have to conduct an absolute assignment, in principle, the benefit of a contract can be legally assigned without consent of the debtor; however there lies Next Directory’s problem that will prevent an absolute assignment, that being the lack of a contract.

 

Next Directory Ltd, where unable to supply a signed agreement for the alleged account. Therefore, unless you can now produce evidence to the contrary, there is NO CONTRACT for you to assign to anyone.

 

Simply Put Next directory cannot assign the rights and benefits to something that does not exist to a third party.

 

Further more, the lack of a signed contract raises further questions regarding the right of Next Directory to process my data, in so much that Next Directory will struggle to prove if consent was given at all.

No doubt you will counter that claim stating consent was granted, I therefore hold Next Directory to STRICT DOCUMENTORY evidence of any such claim, a simple claim doing something constituted acceptance is not sufficient, I require strict documentary proof any such claim is true.

 

As you have stated you are planning to take an action that would be contrary to any possible fair usage of my data even if you had consent, which is as yet unproven and denied by myself, and that by processing my data you are using it to cause damage and/or distress, I now exercise my right under section 10 of the data protection act. As you have failed to prove consent and I have proof you have no contract to claim that it is necessary to carry out a contract, there is no valid reason for refusal.

 

 

10 Right to prevent processing likely to cause damage or distress

(1) Subject to subsection (2), an individual is entitled at any time by notice in writing to a data controller to require the data controller at the end of such period as is reasonable in the circumstances to cease, or not to begin, processing, or processing for a specified purpose or in a specified manner, any personal data in respect of which he is the data subject, on the ground that, for specified reasons—

(a) the processing of those data or their processing for that purpose or in that manner is causing or is likely to cause substantial damage or substantial distress to him or to another, and

(b) that damage or distress is or would be unwarranted.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply—

(a) in a case where any of the conditions in paragraphs 1 to 4 of Schedule 2 is met, or

(b) in such other cases as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State by order.

(3) The data controller must within twenty-one days of receiving a notice under subsection (1) (“the data subject notice”) give the individual who gave it a written notice—

(a) Stating that he has complied or intends to comply with the data subject notice, or

(b) Stating his reasons for regarding the data subject notice as to any extent unjustified and the extent (if any) to which he has complied or intends to comply with it.

(4) If a court is satisfied, on the application of any person who has given a notice under subsection (1) which appears to the court to be justified (or to be justified to any extent), that the data controller in question has failed to comply with the notice, the court may order him to take such steps for complying with the notice (or for complying with it to that extent) as the court thinks fit.

 

I draw your attention to section (3) above you MUST reply to my request made above WITHIN 21 DAYS from the date of receipt of this request stating that you have complied, or your reason for refusal together, as already said, with full documentary evidence regarding consent or proof a contract exists.

 

A simple claim without substantiating evidence IS NOT ACCEPTABLE

 

Also as this matter is now subject to a formal complaint, I also require a copy of your complaints procedure.

 

I hope this matter will now be dealt with in a correct manner to avoid the need for me to commence legal action.

 

 

Yours Sincerely

[cadencealex]

Weird... why are they sending out different agreements to people?!

 

Does it depend on when they opened their account?!

[blind-as-a-bat]

Weird... why are they sending out different agreements to people?!

 

Does it depend on when they opened their account?!

 

The agreement they sent me is post the 2005 changes, trouble is i have no idea when the alleged account was supposed to have been opened

[cadencealex]

The agreement they sent me is post the 2005 changes, trouble is i have no idea when the alleged account was supposed to have been opened

 

Can you check old bank statements to see when payments were being made?

 

Surely they can tell you that over the 'phone?

[blind-as-a-bat]

The letter you sent does not ask for proof of a CCA, it asks for the proof of a contract they can assign, so to justify there refusel to the sec 10 they would have to supply a copy of a signed agreement

 

To prove they have a right of assignment they also have to produce a signed agreemant;)

[blind-as-a-bat]

Can you check old bank statements to see when payments were being made?

 

Surely they can tell you that over the 'phone?

 

We changed banks in 2007, and dont have our statements from the old account, and i dont speak to them on the phone ever, i cant trust myself not to tell them what i really think of them:p

[cadencealex]

We changed banks in 2007, and dont have our statements from the old account, and i dont speak to them on the phone ever, i cant trust myself not to tell them what i really think of them:p

 

 

I don't blame you... I almost freaked on some idiot at Capital One this morning... !!

 

 

Well I will wait and see what they send me.. Next is the worst default on my credit file.

 

I would start making payments BUT without an agreement, if they aren't going to remove the default they're not getting money!

 

This is all such a nightmare!

[blind-as-a-bat]

I don't blame you... I almost freaked on some idiot at Capital One this morning... !!

 

 

Well I will wait and see what they send me.. Next is the worst default on my credit file.

 

I would start making payments BUT without an agreement, if they aren't going to remove the default they're not getting money!

 

This is all such a nightmare!

 

Well as soon as you get Next to admitt it in writing they dont have a signed agreement, it will give you that bargaining power hopefully

[cadencealex]

Well as soon as you get Next to admitt it in writing they dont have a signed agreement, it will give you that bargaining power hopefully

 

hopefully.. we will see

 

 

Incidentally, if you go to Court and lose.. does that mean there is a CCJ against you?

[cadencealex]

Should I have sent the CPR letter instead?

 

They have to comply with that or state they don't have the CCA - the Section 78 thing allows them to send a true copy.. they haven't done anything wrong!

[cadencealex]

Next are saying, that they don't have a signed agreement.

 

But the minute you order goods from them, you are 'signing' the agreement, effectively.

 

Now, my argument ISN'T that I didn't receive the goods, my argument is, I didn't sign anything to give them consent to process my data OR pass it onto a DCA.

 

AND the DCA haven't contacted me for 2 years anyways?! Why haven't they chased this debt?

 

It is Lewis.

 

 

AND they cashed the £1 and added it onto my debt with Next?!

Edited February 11, 2009 by cadencealex