finding faulty cca agreements after a ccj??

[GhostDebt]

Following with interest.

[r&b]

finally got a hearing date 23rd July. it says for the APPLICATION (my 31.14 disclosure) ill phone the court monday to check, but i wonder if this 31.14 disclosure appl is being heard with the set aside, its been allocated 1 hour.

[I've got no money]

finally got a hearing date 23rd July. it says for the APPLICATION (my 31.14 disclosure) ill phone the court monday to check, but i wonder if this 31.14 disclosure appl is being heard with the set aside, its been allocated 1 hour.

 

If its' an hour its' likely to be the set aside application - you want your disclosure application hearing before then - because of course you need the information to use at the Set Aside

[r&b]

If its' an hour its' likely to be the set aside application - you want your disclosure application hearing before then - because of course you need the information to use at the Set Aside

 

thanks IGNM,

i do of course have 2 discl apps for the 2 set asides being heard simultaneously so dont know if they have taken that into account. i ll check the dates that their defence replies were due and phone the court monday anyway to check exactly whats what.

i have a question on costs actually which occurred to me the other day. at the previous hearing, their solicitor was very keen that i had been served with the breakdown of their costs before i got to the court. do i need to do the same (serve/send mine to them) or is it enough to take a breakdown into the hearing? from what ive read its the latter but just wanted to check as he was very eager about that (he would be i guess).

[I've got no money]

thanks IGNM,

i do of course have 2 discl apps for the 2 set asides being heard simultaneously so dont know if they have taken that into account. i ll check the dates that their defence replies were due and phone the court monday anyway to check exactly whats what.

i have a question on costs actually which occurred to me the other day. at the previous hearing, their solicitor was very keen that i had been served with the breakdown of their costs before i got to the court. do i need to do the same (serve/send mine to them) or is it enough to take a breakdown into the hearing? from what ive read its the latter but just wanted to check as he was very eager about that (he would be i guess).

 

Costs - technically as a LIP you don't have to submit your costs in advance of the hearing HOWEVER I would always try to do it so that they have them at least 24 hours before. Don't forget to include estimated times for travel, attending the other side (30 minutes), the hearing itself and things like car parking fees

[r&b]

thanks IGNM,

ill have to sit down n have a work out....

[Spamalot]

Hi R&B, Something that came to me at the weekend was that we were both Applying for ORDERS and not Hearings. I didn't enclose a draft order with mine so that may be why they've set it as a hearing. I am popping to my court today with a copy of the application, a draft order and a list of the fees to see if I can sort this out....as I said, an order should only be £40 quid so it looks like there's been some misunderstanding somewhere.

 

Good luck with your phone call,

Spam:)

[r&b]

Hi R&B, Something that came to me at the weekend was that we were both Applying for ORDERS and not Hearings. I didn't enclose a draft order with mine so that may be why they've set it as a hearing. I am popping to my court today with a copy of the application, a draft order and a list of the fees to see if I can sort this out....as I said, an order should only be £40 quid so it looks like there's been some misunderstanding somewhere.

 

Good luck with your phone call,

Spam:)

 

hi spam,

well i think in my case it was put b4 the same judge and he probably took the whole file (its getting quite large according to the court staff lol) into account. they took my £75 but i did put in draft orders. clearly he wants to hear some reasoning behind it....not rocket science...i want sight of the original docs same as u (and many others) !!! i ll call em ltr n see wot the scoop is..

[r&b]

ok my phone call to the court hasnt really aided much in that there were no specific directions given by the judge as to what is being heard, however the very nice lady in the office said that she believed the judge called an hour so that he can get to the bottom of the whole case and should disclosure be required he will most likely give them a set period in which to do so and subsequently everyone will know where they stand.

one other issue did pop up tho.....i didnt serve my original defence on the other side, which is prob why they have not responded....thought the court did that, but she said the directions were to file and serve...she said theres plenty of time til the 23rd july (next hearing) but i guess they will make a meal of it anyway.....so i ll get a copy off tomorrow with an apology...should i ask that if they require further time they ask the court? think ill send a letter in to the court too in explanation.

[bazaar]

Make sure you get it right in what you were supposed to do. DO NOT apologise to the other side, they could use it against you.

You are an LIP so you can be forgiven a few misdemeanors. If youve done everything according to the court order, then dont worry too much

[r&b]

thanks bazaar, i was deliberating that point actually about the apology. you ve tipped me in the right direction i think....cheers for the input.

[r&b]

sending original defence/CC and skeleton argument with letter telling them the situation and suggesting that they have plenty of time to get the reply in b4 the next hearing..

[manchester1]

subbing

[r&b]

Wrong Thread

[r&b]

ive had no reply from these regarding my defence so will phone the court and see if they have submitted anything or whether they will just bleat abt my being late with it at the hearing on 23rd.

 

also, this case seems to be doing the rounds a bit as its new. it seems to be abt costs in regard to a set aside (very similar to this).

has a precedence been set here as its only in CC and if so is that purely for the costs aspect and doesnt as i suspect stretch to the set aside?

 

post 1151 here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/172543-just-recieved-signed-capital-20.html#post2264418

[paulwlton]

I understand that there's no bar to challenging an unenforeable CCA right up untill a repossession hearing.

[r&b]

thanks paul.

i have had a response to my defence, finally....and an agreement has miraculously surfaced, quite frankly my 3 yr old cud have made a better job, its unbelievable:

 

reply to defence:

 

src="http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt231/robntanya/HFCreplytodefence.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket">

src="http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt231/robntanya/HFCreplytodefence2.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket">

src="http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt231/robntanya/HFCreplytodefence3.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket">

 

supposed agreement, all hand written, no dates and a figure for PPI which is interesting as its ticked for no PPI ...

 

src="http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt231/robntanya/HFCreplytodefence4.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket">

src="http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt231/robntanya/HFCreplytodefence5.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket">

 

any comments welcome

 

this is the defence i submitted post 177, skeleton is on post 178 if reqd:

 

DEFENCE and COUNTERCLAIM for Set Aside pursuant to the Direction of District Judge XXX

Dated XX April 2009

 

1. It is averred that the Claimants Particulars of Claim disclose no legal cause of action, are vague, insufficiently particularised and do not comply with CPR part 16

2. It is not admitted that the Defendant signed a contract with XXX. The Precise terms and date of any such alleged contract are not admitted. The Claimant is put to strict proof as to the date and terms of such contract

3. It is averred that if any contract existed, that the contract was a regulated agreement within the terms of the Consumer Credit Act 1974(the Act). It is denied that the Agreement is enforceable within the terms of the Act s.61, in that the Defendant avers that it bears no debtor or creditor signature

4. It is averred that if any contract existed, that the contract was a regulated agreement within the terms of the Act. It is denied that the Agreement is enforceable within the terms of the Act in that the Defendant avers that the alleged contract does not contain the Statutory Particulars as to payment, rate of interest and calculation of credit limit

5. It is averred that the Claimant has not conformed to my disclosure requests under the Data Protection Act 1998 (Subject Access Request), Civil Procedure Rules 31.16 and 31.14 to which end I refer the court to my application for disclosure and subsequent order

6. It is admitted that the agreement supplied to by the Claimant conforms to the Defendants request, dated XX December 2008 under sec 78 of the Act and to regulation 3 Consumer Credit (cancellation notices and copies of documents) regulations 1983.

7. It is denied that the alleged agreement conforms to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 s.127 in its enforcement of judgement on the claim

8. The Defendant is not in possession of a Default Notice. It is not admitted that the Defendant was served with a Default Notice pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Claimant is put to strict proof as to the service and content of any Default Notice.

9. The Defendant is not in possession of a Termination Notice. It is not admitted that the Defendant was served with a Termination Notice pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Claimant is put to strict proof as to the service and content of any Termination Notice.

10. It is denied that any documentation was attached to the original claim in breach of Civil Procedure Rules part 16 Practice Direction 7.3(1

11. The Claimant is put to strict proof as to the calculation and lawfulness of the added charges from cessation of the account to claim, totalling £XXXX

12. Further and in the alternative if, which is not admitted, an enforceable agreement is in existence it is not admitted that any or all of the monies claimed are lawfully owing. The Claimant is put to strict proof as to how the sums claimed have been calculated and as to how those sums are lawfully owing.

13. Further it is denied that both the alleged contractual interest and the alleged contractual account charges which have been claimed are lawfully owing in that it is averred that not only is there no contractual basis for the sums claimed but also that the sums claimed are in any event unfair and in breach of the general law

14. In view of the above, it is denied that the Defendant is indebted to the Claimant as alleged or at all.

Counterclaim

1. The Defendant repeats his defence set out above

2. The Defendant seeks a declaration from the Court that the aforesaid agreement is unenforceable in that it does not contain the statutory particulars and is therefore unenforceable within the terms of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

Statement of Truth

I believe that the facts stated in this defence are true.

I am the Defendant

Signed

Edited July 9, 2009 by r&b

[bazaar]

It looks to me that the agreement is not executed, because of the missing signatures.

Also, they are trying to mess with the Judge in their statement about CCA 1984, the document they produced clearly shows CCA 1974, so that is the act to follow.

You now need to go through your defence and their reply to each, so you can pick apart their arguments.

You'll need to get together the relevant case law which supports you and debunks them.

So for example, where they deny they have to provide the executed document, you use the case law specific to producing such. Try to make it easy for the Judge to side with you. They are basically denying stuff without backing it up. You on the other will show that they cannot just deny it, put them to strict proof that the document/s exist.

[r&b]

thanks bazaar will do so.

that agreement is a joke. looks like its been dragged up from some other case, been tippexed over and rewritten, forgetting to tippex out the PPI bit.

appreciate ur comments

[r&b]

according to this interest calc their numbers are incorrect on p1 of the supposed agreement too:

 

Loan calculator : FSA money made clear (stolen from spam, cheers)

 

anyone got a manual formula for this to hand?

[Spamalot]

according to this interest calc their numbers are incorrect on p1 of the supposed agreement too:

 

Loan calculator : FSA money made clear (stolen from spam, cheers) I wondered where that had got, to been looking everywhere for that

 

anyone got a manual formula for this to hand?

 

I don't have a manual formula but there is this other Calc that Car2403 recommended .

 

Loan & APR Calculator

 

Spam.

[r&b]

cheers spam for all your input, still cant get the numbers they have...lol

 

ive been going thru the reply to my defence, if thats what u can call it. they have all of a sudden plonked a stray agreement, such that it is, on the end of it. now is this allowed? i have given them ample opportunity to produce an agreement to the point of submitting an application for such and i understood that i was making a defence based on what was available at the previous hearing, which did not include this copy of the agreement. this agreement even has PPI charges on it which are in excess of the mthly repaymts, with the PPI not reqd box ticked!!!!

 

so my question is, do i simply do the usual attack on a clearly unenforceable agreement, or join that to the fact that this should not be admissable in the first place?

thanks

 

agreement is in the last 2 links in post 217

[caro]

I don't think the judge would disallow any new documentation, although you could ask. Personally, I'd just go on the attack if it's not right and show the irrelevance of it.

[r&b]

thanks caro sorry for the belated response not been on for a few days

[r&b]

i had this waiting on the doorstep..

 

src="http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt231/robntanya/RBSletteraboutfiguresinclaim.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket">

 

the total amount payable mentioned is the loan plus interest (i assume)

 

the advance mentioned is the original loan amount

 

question3 is asking whether the original loan amt or the total incl int charges

 

bit unsure what to make of it really? dated 3 days prior to the hearing and they seem to be explaining the claim amount or smth? this is accompanied by a schedule of payments with an opening bal of principle loan plus, i assume int chges (which i havent seen before) the resulting balance of which, interestingly is different from that on the default bal on the POC (slightly more???) also there is still an unexplained collection charge of over £2k...

 

any idea wot this is all about?

Edited July 21, 2009 by r&b