Marks and Spencer Money req cca my journey MAZ

[angel_1]

hiya all

 

already req cca from m and s money credit card, so will update you after the 14 working days are up with any info rec or not

 

take care for now angel

***************

 

**** please note read this with the second updated thread as this journey progresses

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/214191-hsbc-solicitors-northampton-claim.html

Edited October 17, 2009 by angel_1

[blue4ever]

Hi MAZ1964 WELCOME to CAG, You have come to the right place,there are lots of people on this site that will point you in the right direction.

Looking forward to hear from you again.

Cheers B4E:-)

 

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PLEASE DONATE TO CAG ,EVERY LITTLE HELPS

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Thank You blue4ever:grin:

[angel_1]

hello blue4ever

 

oh thanks very much for your nice welcome this morning, made me feel like a newbie all over again.

 

i do appreciate your reply and it made me smile this morning

 

im getting to know lots of stuff here already but am willing to learn all the time

 

have a great day ciao for now MAZ

[mark863]

Hi Maz

 

I'm a newbie here and will also be requesting cca and sar from m&s. Just wondered if you could tell me what to put on postal order and what address etc to send to? I feel silly asking but cant seem to find this info on this site.

 

I will start my own thread too as soon as I've got the ball rolling.

 

Ta

 

Mark863

[angel_1]

hello Mark863

 

welcome, and pls dont feel silly, to tell you the truth i couldnt find another m and s thread, when i was checking, did try all sorts

 

thanks for your message, no problems i didnt mind at all we are all here to help and share info to each other

[angel_1]

update

 

got an agreement with these for an amount without int and charges but now as its one of my higher ones,

 

im in a bit of a dilemma

 

they have not responded to cca, so i can send a dispute letter

 

cos of my other creditors starting to heat up stuff for me, i would want this one on the back burner so to speak

 

could continue to pay the amount i have until next year and keep pressing for the cca and if i get it then can assess the enforceablitliy and if not correct then i can take further advice from here

 

any othe options i may have, i have come to realise you have to fight each battle at its own merits, i dont want to fall at the first hurdle though

 

laters and thanks for looking in MAZ:)

[Goldlady]

Hi Maz, you have changed to an alter ego but I shan't ask!!!

 

I CCA'd M&S ages ago and got a copy of my storecard application from 1988 which I thought was a major achievement on their part. However it has no prescribed terms etc etc.

 

I have been paying them £1 a month for the past two years and all of a sudden I have received a default notice and a statement saying they are charging me £39 interest and £12 for issuing the default notice which kind of knocks out all the payments I have made.

 

I have not defaulted on the payments so am going to challenge them on this. Thought I would join your thread as there don't seem to be many on M&S as yet. The credit crunch is obviously biting with them as well.

 

The one thing they have not done is pass this on to a DCA which most of my other creditors have done. I have so far seen them as being kind and sympathetic to my problems.

[hellhasnofury]

Hello Maz and Goldlady:grin:

 

I have experience of the good old "have faith in our Company" M&S:rolleyes:

 

Unfortunately I found them to extremely unsympathetic to my personal circumstances, after being a good customer for many years. Even though I was paying them a reduced payment via payplan, they immediately defaulted me and sent my account to moorcroft the dca:rolleyes:

 

Sent for the sar to reclaim back charges and once I received it, it opened up a minefield.

 

As you have stated goldlady they send your application form for a store card, which has a different account no to the credit card account which they upgraded you to(without your consent) by the means of sending you a mailer:eek:

 

This account I have with them in in dispute, and I have held them at bay for 18months now. Although they did pass the account on to two further dca's, they disappeared very quickly after receiving letters.

 

I have asked them to take me to court and I am still waiting for them to issue a summons to me, so I can defend and counterclaim:-D. That was over a year ago

 

This is a very interesting piece of information regarding the upgrading of the original store cards to the credit cards in 2003.

 

Consumer advice

Marks makes sparks

Richard Dyson, Mail on Sunday

24 September 2003

THE financial arm of Marks & Spencer has become the first major company to break the Banking Code, the voluntary rulebook agreed by the banking and credit card industry.

 

precedented move: Laurel Powers-Freeling

M&S Money, which is poised to launch its '&more' credit card business in the next fortnight, has ignored the rule that forbids lenders from sending cards to people who have not asked for them.

Within days, M&S will post its new MasterCard to 2.6m people. In all but a handful of cases, the recipients will not have requested the cards. Instead, they will be targeted because they are on the company's database of five million store card customers.

The move, seen by rivals as unprecedented and extremely aggressive, will at a stroke transform M&S into Britain's sixth-biggest credit card company.

Up to £4bn of fresh credit will be offered to consumers who have not asked for it.

The Banking Code has been drawn up and modified over several years to promote good practice and fairness to consumers. The code clearly states: 'We will send you a card only if you ask for one or to replace a card you already have.'

M&S's card launch is being overseen by Laurel Powers-Freeling, formerly of Lloyds TSB and now chief executive of M&S Money.

She says the new &more cards are simply 'replacements' or 'upgrades' for existing store cards. But in practice, the cards are completely different - store cards can be used only in M&S shops and typically impose low spending limits.

The new cards can be used anywhere and the average spending limits are likely to be at least doubled, according to M&S.

The code is enforced by the Banking Code's Standard Board (BCSB), which is now in an embarrassing position. In private, it has expressed concern at M&S's tactic. But publicly, it is allowing M&S to wriggle off the hook because the code is not set to apply officially to M&S until next summer.

BCSB chief executive Seymour Fortescue says: 'M&S is still in the process of applying to subscribe to the code, so we don't yet have official jurisdiction over its activities. Only when it is fully covered can we force it to comply.'

M&S's move, coming as card issuers face increased scrutiny from MPs on the powerful Treasury Select Committee, has also plunged the High Street giant into political hot water. Vince Cable MP, the Liberal Democrat industry spokesman, has called for all uninvited offers of credit to be outlawed.

Of M&S's card launch, he says: 'It is unsolicited debt promotion by any other name, whatever the company says. It's very dangerous.'

And he warned: 'If and when the current economic bubble bursts, a lot of people will find themselves in difficulties. M&S will have a direct responsibility.'

An M&S spokesman said: 'We are offering existing customers an improved service. We are not sending cards to people with whom we have no relationship. Our credit limits are extremely prudent. We can say, hand on heart, that we are a responsible lender.'

 

:grin:

 

 

 

[Goldlady]

Interesting hhnf:D. I don't remember reading about that at the time but I do remember suddenly receiving the new card without being asked if I wanted it. Suddenly a storecard with a £500 limit became a credit card with a much higher one. Hmmm.

 

Have written to complain about the default and have even said in the letter that I hope they haven't suddenly added the interest to inflate the value before selling the debt on:rolleyes:. I shall let you know what they say.

[hellhasnofury]

Interesting hhnf:D. I don't remember reading about that at the time but I do remember suddenly receiving the new card without being asked if I wanted it. Suddenly a storecard with a £500 limit became a credit card with a much higher one. Hmmm.

 

Have written to complain about the default and have even said in the letter that I hope they haven't suddenly added the interest to inflate the value before selling the debt on:rolleyes:. I shall let you know what they say.

 

Yes indeed Goldlady, very interesting to say the least.

 

Marks and sparks are still in breach of my ca request, I have refused to accept that a store card application for a differing account, which according to my credit file entry appeared to have been settled in 2003, is the credit agreement for this alleged credit card account. Are they barkers:lol: they state the mailer they stated they sent was a credit agreement:eek: They even sent me the a copy of the template mailer to show me what it would have looked like

 

They did set moorcroft, fenton cooper and Rockwell dca to chase me, but they all went searching for cover (back under their stones) when they received my letter regarding harassment and to refer back to m and s and that is where the matter has stayed.

 

I have a harassment file, about 3ft high, waiting for their next move:lol:

[BlueSquirrel]

I think I have the mailer that they sent the replacement card with. I am a squirrel, I hoard things, what can I say?

 

My store card was taken out before the 1985 part of the CCA came in so not sure where that leaves me. But yes I started off with an M & S store charge card from St Michael Fin Services with a 500 limit and ended up with an And More Credit Card with M & S Fin Services and the only thing I ever signed was an application.

 

I also have a Personal Reserve Account - does anyone have any experience on that one?

 

Thanks to Goldlady for leading me to this thread:)

[angel_1]

hello everyone

 

thank you all very much for joining me and my journey - am always interested in learning more

 

well the lovely m and s - still havent sent my cca, and also have sent me a letter with interest yet my previous compliant had suggested i was to stick to my plan, agreed with no interest what are they now doing??

 

i think after my cca request hit them, i think they are trying to offload me somehow, so i think another complaint to them, and i will also state they are sending out very confusing letters to me suggesting im on a plan and then adding interest and charges and remind them they are still in default of my cca, i think i might actually challenge them and send a dispute to cca, complaint for confussion and they have forced my hand in not paying them until they resolve my cca issue and my complaint in why the charges and interest are now being added?

 

i feel totally frustrated by them now, any ideas guys and any letters you want to throw at me to send im happy to receive gladly

 

happy holidays to all and keep positive

 

laters angel x

[BlueSquirrel]

I think I might tell them they are in default as they have supplied an application form and not an agreement, and see if they twig that some of the rules were different when this was taken out

[ajs444]

I have already sent a default letter to them as when they replied to the SAR, they sent a micrfiche copy of the store card agreement.

I have another thread running below these ones, I'll keep you all updated.

[BlueSquirrel]

I have already sent a default letter to them as when they replied to the Subject Access Request, they sent a micrfiche copy of the store card agreement.

I have another thread running below these ones, I'll keep you all updated.

 

I got a microfiche copy as well - is that not acceptable?

[ajs444]

You have asked for a credit card agreement, they have sent a store card agreement.

[angel_1]

hiya all a bit of an update

 

got something like an application from ms and some terms, will try and scan up in a bit

 

im due to pay them soon this month, and ive missed last months as its taken ages to get my cca back

 

it dont look enforceable to me, maybe complied with the cca act but i will await further advice once ive scanned

 

laters angel x

[hellhasnofury]

hiya all a bit of an update

 

got something like an application from ms and some terms, will try and scan up in a bit

 

im due to pay them soon this month, and ive missed last months as its taken ages to get my cca back

 

it dont look enforceable to me, maybe complied with the cca act but i will await further advice once ive scanned

 

laters angel x

 

Hello Angel,

 

Can't wait till you post it up:grin: as I must confess I have never seen a enforceable agreement from M&S.

 

Poor M&S they are riding on the back of ignorant customers in the 2.5 million upgrade credit cards they sent out on original unenforceable pre-contractual application forms.

 

They need to get everything they deserve, due to their greed:mad:

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Angel!

 

Thanks for the PM, I think the bumf below may help. I made some parts Grey to highlight the areas where most people need to find the details to turn them black! IOW, most won't have the figures immediately to hand, but should be able to work them out from their Statements, or via Subject Access Request if they do not have all their Statements. Please check the details, as they were written for someone else, and there may be the odd area that is specific to them:

 

The Big Numbers

 

Now you need to gather the missing bits between when you first signed up to what you thought was an Agreement, and the Date of Termination that ended the alleged Agreement.

 

For example:

 

========================= =====

 

XX/XX/XXXX = The alleged Agreement (TBA)

 

--> A Total of all Spending/Purchases (TBA)

 

--> B Total of all Interest Charged (TBA)

 

--> C Total of any Unlawful Charges (TBA)

 

--> D Total of all valid Charges (TBA)

 

--> E Total of all Repayments (TBA)

 

 

The Balance of the Agreement = (A + B + C + D) - E

 

 

The above Balance can be analysed further:

 

--> F Total of Missed Payments/Arrears (TBA)

 

--> P1 = Total Payments due before Termination.

 

This total P1 will be equal to F if there are no unlawful charges, or it will be equal to F minus C if there are unlawful charges.

 

--> P2 = Total Payments due in the Future while the Agreement is live, or due for Payment upon lawful Termination.

 

This total P2 will be the Balance of Agreement less P1.

 

XX/XX/2008 = The Default Notice (TBA)

 

The Default Notice should state P1 as being the amount you needed to Pay to remedy the default that caused the Creditor to issue a Default Notice. The amount P1 needs to be accurate. P1 must equal F for that to be the case. If however there are unlawful charges (C), then P1 cannot equal F, and the Default Notice is then highly likely to be invalid on that basis alone. The degree of error will determine if the Notice is invalid, an error greater than 38.71% will exceed the Default Notice error noted in Woodchester v Swayne and Co 1998, so can be considered invalid based on that precedent. Below 38.71% margin for error, and there will be a debate if the error is significant enough to invalidate the Default Notice, or if the error is just de minimis.

 

de minimis = de minimis non curat lex, a Latin phrase meaning the Law does not care about very small matters. This is not very helpful, and does not actually say how small an error needs to be before it can be considered de minimis.

 

The Default Notice should be set out in the Prescribed way.

 

The Default Notice should allow you 14 Clear Days (assuming it was issued after 19/12/2006, otherwise it's only 7 Clear Days if issued before then).

 

XX/XX/XXXX = The Date of Termination

 

========================= =====

 

 

How can the above be used to help?

 

You are missing all of the bits in Grey above, but once you gather them, then you can proceed as follows:

 

If the Creditor has a valid Agreement, and they issue a valid Default Notice that complied with s88, and then Terminated the Agreement once you failed to remedy the default outlined in the Default Notice, then s87 allows them to seek Full Payment of the whole Balance of the Agreement. That will be made up of Payments Due before Termination (P1), plus Payments that were only due after lawful Termination (P2).

 

However, if the Creditor does not have a valid Agreement, then there may not be a Debt in the first place. So, that is a key issue you need to try and establish via your s78(1) Request and via your S.A.R.

 

If they do have a valid Agreement, then the way they Terminated the Agreement is going to be very important indeed.

 

A lawful Termination entitles them to seek full Payment of the whole Balance of the Agreement (P1 + P2).

 

Whereas an unlawful Termination should limit them to being able to seek Payment of only P1 because they will not then be able to enjoy the benefits of s87. Remember too that P1 has to be accurate, if there are unlawful charges (C), then they will reduce P1, and could give rise to a Refund Claim if C is greater than P1.

 

The Date of Termination should be on, or just before, a Cancellation Letter from bank/CA. Be aware that the actual Date of Termination could be a few days before their letter, as it could depend on when the Creditor marked your file as being Terminated. A S.A.R. may show that date more accurately but until that is available, the Date on the Bank/DCA letter that confirmed your alleged Agreement had been Terminated is accurate enough.

 

Note that Termination can also be when they demand Payment of a future sum not otherwise due, suggesting they think they have issued a valid Default Notice, and think they get to enjoy the benefits of s87.

 

Likewise, sale to a basic DCA is also Termination, because the DCA is unable to let you continue with the Agreement as it was first established, i.e. they cannot let you start using, say, a Credit Card again. Thus, sale to a DCA is Termination because it is clear that the Original Creditor regards the Agreement has ended, otherwise they would not Sell it to a DCA who they know cannot keep the Account/Agreement operational. All the DCA can do is ask for Payment, either as a lump sum, or via a Payment Plan they invent themselves that does not relate to the Terms of the original Agreement.

 

The items in grey are what you ought now to try and establish, so that you can fill in the blanks until you have a good overview of the alleged Agreement from Day One until the Date of Termination.

 

If you still have all of your Statements, then the items A to E above can be established, albeit that it may take you a little while to go through the Statements in order to pull out the main figures.

 

If you do not have your Statements, then you'll need to wait for your S.A.R. to come back which should hopefully provide the missing figures.

 

The big numbers are important, otherwise you won't know where you are with the alleged Debt. Once you know where you are, you can then examine their figures to see if they have made any howling errors!

 

Don't get bogged down in the detail, it's just the main Categories that you need to know. For example, if you subtract E from A, that will tell you if you've spent more than you have ever repaid, or if you have repaid more then you have ever spent. In many Credit Card examples I've looked at, people are often quite shocked to find that they have actually repaid more than they have ever spent, so the alleged Debt that now remains is effectively the sum total of the Creditor's Interest and Charges.

 

If they do not have a valid Agreement, then there is no Debt. This is because you are not liable for that Interest or those Charges unless there is an Agreement that binds you to paying them in the first place.

 

If they do have a valid Agreement, then there is a Debt, or at least there was a Debt prior to Termination.

 

How they went about Termination is key, because it can make the difference between you owing the whole Balance, or just the Arrears, or quite possibly them owing you something depending on how the big numbers above work out.

 

This is a little complex, but if you work through what I have said above, it may start to make sense.

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

BRW

Edited January 21, 2009 by banker_rhymes_with
Making it more specific for Angel.

[angel_1]

hiya hellhasnofury

 

will get my coffee and work on the scan after ive made a few phone calls, brb in a bit

 

laters angel x

[angel_1]

Good Morning BRW

 

that is fantastic, truely wonderful thank you for taking the time out for me

 

i will be requesting my sars esp for ms now but i wanted to trial the format out on my mbna cards first as i do have all the statement from the sars already received

 

i will have a good go later today and let you know how i got on

 

again cheers i have learnt so much from your posts you are truely inspirational

 

have a fun day

 

laters angel x:cool:

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Folks!

 

Just found some bumf that may be interesting to anyone who had an M&S Store Card or M&S Charge Card, who then had it turned into an M&S Credit Card automatically.

 

Consumer Credit Act 1974 Section 51

 

Part IV Seeking Business Canvassing etc.

 

Prohibition of unsolicited credit-tokens

 

51.

 

(1) It is an offence to give a person a credit-token if he has not asked for it.

 

(2) To comply with subsection (1) a request must be contained in a document signed by the person making the request, unless the credit-token agreement is a small debtor-creditor-supplier agreement.

 

(3) Subsection (1) does not apply to the giving of a credit-token to a person—

 

(a) for use under a credit-token agreement already made, or

 

(b) in renewal or replacement of a credit-token previously accepted by him under a credit-token agreement which continues in force, whether or not varied.

 

I think this was added way back near 1974 to make sure Credit Card bankers didn't just give these out like confetti or, if they already had, then to fall into line with the new CCA 1974 Act, they had to get people to sign up to an Agreement if they wished to avoid falling out with the new Act.

 

There may be some scope here to say M&S have breached s51 if they didn't get you to sign up to a New Agreement when they issued the nice new M&S Credit Cards!

 

Please ask around, as I do not know if this is any use.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[ajs444]

BRW, in a post attached to my thread in other institutions, M&S More Money, you say to send a CPR 31.16 as against a Subject Access Request under consumer credit act sections 67/68.

I am going round in circles with this lot, they say they have fulfilled their duties and supplied valid CCA, which quite obviously does not hold water.

I have decided to "flush them out" and sent the letter below for a definitive answer:-

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

ACCOUNT NUMBER XXXXXXXX

 

 

 

I respectfully request that you provide me by return a copy of the credit agreement which bears my signature. I require this as I have reason to believe that there may be discrepancies within the agreement which may leave it improperly executed.

 

Obviously if the agreement is improperly executed I would be entitled to ask the court to consider the agreement and make a declaration of the rights of parties to the agreement.

 

I must stress this request is NOT made pursuant to section 78 Consumer Credit Act 1974 but is made pursuant to the Civil Procedure Rules ( Pre-action protocols and Part 31.16) and therefore unsigned copy will not suffice, only a copy of the original contract in its unaltered form will suffice in these circumstances

 

Please confirm if you still hold a copy of my signed agreement and that you will provide me with this document.

 

I do not view this as an unreasonable request given that by supplying the document which i have asked for it will allow me to assess if my case has merit and will help to resolve matters possibly without the need to involve the court and will undoubtedly save costs on both sides

 

I look forward to your reply and would ask for a response by XXXXXXXXX

[angel_1]

hello everyone

 

all good intentions last week then got involved with helping a friend prepare for a defence to an eviction from her house, thankfully we attended and her duty solicitor got her a 2 months reprieve to either remortgage or sell before it gets repossessed her home.

 

********************************************************************

 

1)) so now im back, will scan what i got from ms - says at top &MORE CREDIT CARD APPLICATION

 

http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp159/aquarian1964/ms012009-1.jpg

 

http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp159/aquarian1964/ms022009.jpg

 

 

 

 

the above supposed to be terms and conditions... not that clear even in what ive received, as bad as it looks

 

****

 

2)) also got a default notice too in the past week and now would like advice

 

http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp159/aquarian1964/ms32009-1.jpg

 

 

bear with me for a while ta angel x FINALLY DONE IT, its taken ages, i aint good at this,,,lol

Edited January 30, 2009 by angel_1

[angel_1]

hiya all

 

i finally got to scan and post all my latest info on previous post

 

i dont think the default notice is valid and its not in the wording it should be, also as this is a different worded one to my other one received from another creditor

 

this one states " in order to remedy the breach you must pay the total arrears of ,,,,,, within 14 days of the date this notice

 

so for example date of letter was 24 dec 08 ,,,,i only got the letter on the 29 dec 08 so in theory i should comply by 6 jan 09?

 

 

however, on receipt on 29 dec 08 til 06 jan only allows anyway 9 days,

 

but i understood there should be a proper date that the breach should be remedied by ,,,not this within 14 days of the date of notice.....

 

also whilst certain things are in capitals they are slanted but not in bold or underscored....again invalid

 

this is how i understand it,,,thus im hoping if this is the case

 

they pls terminate me from this universe and with the app form and unreadable info,,, they are sunk

 

i havent sar them yet

 

should i just wait for termination?

 

get the termination letter in my hands first?

 

then sar them?

 

i awiat your good advice cos now im sort of limbo at the moment

 

many thanks

 

laters angel x:cool: