can bailiff take car?

[postggj]

hope tomtubby can answer this

 

i was under the impression a baliff cant take goods worth more than the alledged debt

 

say you have a liability order for 1500 quid

your car is worth 12 grand

even at auction, cost etc, you will get back much more than 1500 quid

 

so how can the baliff do a levy on a vehicle in this case

 

my question is just for my own knowledge

[wildrob]

Hi burp

 

thanks for that, i will also tell the council that as well, i have asked both the council and bailiffs for proof of visits and nothing.

i will be telling the judge about this when i see him/her

 

thanks again

rob

[Messydesk]

I found this a very useful thread. The bailiffs (from HSBC) turned up without a court order and tried to take my car which is a Motability car, for back payment of council tax - which they had previously admitted was an error. The bailiffs took a lot of convincing that they were in the wrong. Its good to be able to look at this site and get some ammunition for dealing with these people.

[Voxter]

hope tomtubby can answer this

 

i was under the impression a baliff cant take goods worth more than the alledged debt

 

say you have a liability order for 1500 quid

your car is worth 12 grand

even at auction, cost etc, you will get back much more than 1500 quid

 

so how can the baliff do a levy on a vehicle in this case

 

my question is just for my own knowledge

 

If it is the only item available then its ok to levy on a bently sport for a £100 debt.....& sell it too if it got that far.

[postggj]

can you give me a link to the legislation that allows that please

[Voxter]

no idea about a link.....read up distress for rent & rates. John Kruse does a few easy translations.

[postggj]

thanks

 

but realy need to get to the bottom of this

 

i need to know where in the legislation it says a baliff can levy on goods and sell them thats worth more than the original debt

 

many thanks any way

[Voxter]

not sure if theres anywhere on the web that lists all legslation but this book will help u Amazon.co.uk: Bailiff's Powers: A Debtor's Guide (Key Advice Guides): John Kruse: Books

 

very hard to understand exactly how distraint works by doing a few google searches & looking on forums. sometimes the good old fashioned ways are the best

[freakyleaky]

thanks

 

but realy need to get to the bottom of this

 

i need to know where in the legislation it says a baliff can levy on goods and sell them thats worth more than the original debt

 

many thanks any way

 

Although your question is not distracting from this thread, maybe start another thread specifically asking for this information. I am sure you will get more responses.

 

Freaky.

[sequenci]

not sure if theres anywhere on the web that lists all legslation but this book will help u Amazon.co.uk: Bailiff's Powers: A Debtor's Guide (Key Advice Guides): John Kruse: Books

 

very hard to understand exactly how distraint works by doing a few google searches & looking on forums. sometimes the good old fashioned ways are the best

 

100% with you.

 

John Kruse is a very knowledgable chap who trained me on bailiff powers. Great book.

[wildrob]

Hi all

 

finally had a reply for the bailiffs.

 

only 1 bailiff is certificated by the county court the other one is not certificated, but both turned up together.

 

 

1st visit £22.50, 2nd £16.50

levy fee £32.00

van attendance fee £125.

total bailiffs cost £196.

 

they say that once a liability order has been issued the bailiffs are not lawfully obliged to write and advise of our intention to visit.

we record and retain accurate details of visit on our system, we are able to produce copies of all letters, however it cost to much to post!!!!!!!

but will produce when goes to court!!

 

while you consider the balance of £196 to represent fees, you should note that under council tax (admin and enforcement) regulations 1992, part payment are to be allocated to discharge the cost of any bailiff action before discharging the debt. you have paid an amount of £329 direct to the council, effetively under the aforementined regulations this payment is council tax of £133.41 and £196 bailiff cost!!

 

with regard to your demand for £4999 or amount amount of compensation, we consider this to be tatamount to blackmail, and will strenuously defend, and will draw this threat along with the other details from your communication to the courts attention!!!

while we are confident that the police will view this as a civil matter, we reserve our right to make our own complaint to the police in respect of your threats of blackmail?

it would appear that the advice you have been given to evade payment is incorrect or flawed,

the fee incurred are entirely lawful and correct, and will not enter any further correspondence with you. your account of £196 remains outstanding and payment is required by return.

 

any thoughts????

[Guest BURP]

The regulations do not provide for van attendance fees and levy fees. The operative word is reasonable costs. Since nothing is signed and no goods have been transported by a bailiff so reasonable costs is £0.00. You have a right to make an official complaint against the bailiff in charge. Phone the Ministry of Justice Public Register of Bailiffs on 020 3334 6355 and ask which court issued his certificate. Download an official complaint form http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/form4_0606.pdf and send the form to the certificating court with a simple covering letter asking for it to be placed before a judge. In the Details of Complaint (tweak as needed).

 

On [DATE] I was visited by the bailiff collecting unpaid council tax. He demanded £[AMOUNT] of which his fees were £[AMOUNT]. I understand the regulations prescribing bailiffs fees provide a maximum of £24.50 for a first visit and £18.00 for a second visit. I also understand defrauding me with fees in this way this commits an offence under Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006.

 

I have tried to reach an amicable resolve with the bailiff and his firm but they have become defensive and vexatious in nature.

 

I confirm I have signed no documents from a bailiff and no goods have been transported by bailiff or in a van. No walking Possession Agreements has been agreed.

 

I ask that I am compensated the money paid to the bailiffs and reasonable compensation for seeking discovery of information and bringing this matter to court. I have attached proof of fee charges to this form

 

If the bailiff thinks you are blackmailing them you then let the police decide that. You are well within your rights to ask for compensation for being defrauded by them. Defrauding you with fees is extortion and they have committed themselved in writing and threatened you with it. Send the following letter to police and the bailiff will be pulled in for questioning under caution at a police station. They will soon leave you alone. Tweak as needed.

 

To whom it may concern

Name of Police Station

Address 1

Address 2

Address 3

Postcode

 

DATE

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: Reporting offences committed under the Fraud Act

 

I was visited by [NAME OF BAILIFF(S)] of on [DATE] enforcing payment of unpaid council tax. I have been defrauded by the bailiff because he overcharged me in fees contrary to Regulation 14(2) and Regulation 45(2) of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992.

 

I was charged £[AMOUNT] in fees for an original debt of £[AMOUNT] and their document confirms I am being defrauded by £[AMOUNT] in unlawful bailiffs fees. The prescribed maximum is £24.50 for a first visit and £18 for a second visit.

 

I asked the bailiff to put things right but they have become defensive and vexatious in nature. They even tried to threaten me in a letter to scare me away. Their approach indicates the bailiff or his firm is routinely and systematically defrauding debtors in this way believing the general public are less-informed of the law that prescribes bailiffs fees. I confirm I have signed no documents from a bailiff and no goods have been transported by bailiff or in a van. No walking Possession Agreements has been agreed

 

I understand it is a criminal offence under Sections 2 and 4 of the Fraud Act 2006 to make a gain or obtain a money transfer in this way or by misuse of his position. I therefore ask the criminal element of this matter is fully investigated objectively and professionally and I have enclosed relevant documentation to satisfy the criteria for the CPS to start criminal proceedings. I am happy to stand as a prosecution witness and provide a statement, please let me know if you need further information.

 

Meanwhile please provide me with the crime number.

 

Yours Faithfully

 

 

YOUR NAME

Enc: Copy of bailiff receipt (evidence)

[Guest BURP]

Rob, which firm of bailiffs is this? I have not seen such a defensive reply to that template letter before. It looks like they are guilty as hell and they know you have caught them with pants at half-mast. Its very unusual for a bailiff to react in this way and try to scare you away and make a very obvious factual error in their letter saying the police would interpret the Fraud Act as a civil matter.

[wildrob]

Hi burp

 

the firm is called andrew james enforcement ltd from swansea. i did have to laugh when they said they will make a complaint of blackmail because of my threats lol. letters sent were from here!!

i did a form 4 on 24/10 still waiting, would the bailiffs know about this yet!! but i did kick up a fuss when i was there about the bailiffs.

court staff was shocked and said court bailiffs would never act like that.

 

i have asked for proof of visits and any letters put though my door to confirm visit, in the letter it said visit was on 31/7 and 7/08 but still no proof

 

so it appears i still owe £196 council tax?

i have also got rates for van hire, and the dearest is £66 per day.

 

cheers

rob

Edited November 20, 2008 by wildrob

[Guest BURP]

That fits, their reply is definitely not the work of a solicitor. It looks like you have some right cowboys working for the council. You can make noise with the council and LGO and they council will probably suspend their contract if they are caught defrauding taxpayers. The council wont want its name to be dragged through muddy media waters and associates by serial fraudsters. I wouldn’t bother finding van-hire rates, the law provides reasonable cost and if nothing is moved then its £0.00. Simple as that.

[wildrob]

i have a reply from the council legal dept.

telling me the council are happy with andrew james and they have acted in accordance with the relevant legislation.

i sent them a letter as well, asking to look at andrew james.

 

so can the bailiff remove my car? they did put a levy on it.

 

i am still compalining about the 1st and 2nd visits, i asked the council to get proof of visit and copies of letters or i will go to the lgo

 

with andrew james i can still go to the fso and they will then be charged £450 for the complaint!!

[palomino]

not sure if theres anywhere on the web that lists all legslation but this book will help u Amazon.co.uk: Bailiff's Powers: A Debtor's Guide (Key Advice Guides): John Kruse: Books

 

Sadly ... "We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock."

[Guest BURP]

If the bailiff didn't knock on the door until after he had clamped the car then you have plenty of recourse because its an offence under Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 to dishonestly make a false representation to make a gain for himself or another. The bailiff pretended he was entitled to charge fees for clamping and unclamping a car without making any effort to contact the debtor beforehand. Nothing in the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 provides for any clamping/unclamping fee. It only provides reasonable costs for transporting debtors goods. At minimum you can decline payment under Section 2 of the Unsolicited Goods and Services Act 1971. You even have a right to report the criminal element to police and the bailiff may be questioned under caution.

[tomtubby]

hope tomtubby can answer this

 

i was under the impression a baliff cant take goods worth more than the alledged debt

 

say you have a liability order for 1500 quid

your car is worth 12 grand

even at auction, cost etc, you will get back much more than 1500 quid

 

so how can the baliff do a levy on a vehicle in this case

 

 

 

If you have refused to allow a bailiff entry into your home or there are no other goods available on which to levy, then the bailiff can indeed levy on an expensive item and yes, the car can be clamped and removed as it has now been impounded.

 

I can get the relevant case law from John Kruse's books in the morning. He is "the" expert on Bailiff Law and has written many books on this subject and most advice agencies use his books as their "bible". His book is sadly out of print and in fact I sent him an e-mail yesterday on this point.

 

On the response from the council I have the following comments:

 

BOTH bailiff's do NOT need to be certificated. Only the bailiff signing the Notice of Seizure/Walking Possession needs to be certificated. The bailiff co will argue that the second bailiff was a "bailiff in training".

 

Bailiffs companies do not need to write to you to advise that they have been instructed by the relevant local authority. There is nothing in the regulations to provide for this and neither can he charge a letter fee.

 

Lastly, on the matter of the Fraud Act 2006. It is for the POLICE to decide whether or not to prosecute. I have not heard of any such prosecutions.

[tomtubby]

Hi all

 

finally had a reply for the bailiffs.

 

only 1 bailiff is certificated by the county court the other one is not certificated, but both turned up together.

 

 

1st visit £22.50, 2nd £16.50

levy fee £32.00

van attendance fee £125.

total bailiffs cost £196.

 

they say that once a liability order has been issued the bailiffs are not lawfully obliged to write and advise of our intention to visit.

we record and retain accurate details of visit on our system, we are able to produce copies of all letters, however it cost to much to post!!!!!!!

but will produce when goes to court!!

 

while you consider the balance of £196 to represent fees, you should note that under council tax (admin and enforcement) regulations 1992, part payment are to be allocated to discharge the cost of any bailiff action before discharging the debt. you have paid an amount of £329 direct to the council, effetively under the aforementined regulations this payment is council tax of £133.41 and £196 bailiff cost!!

 

with regard to your demand for £4999 or amount amount of compensation, we consider this to be tatamount to blackmail, and will strenuously defend, and will draw this threat along with the other details from your communication to the courts attention!!!

while we are confident that the police will view this as a civil matter, we reserve our right to make our own complaint to the police in respect of your threats of blackmail?

it would appear that the advice you have been given to evade payment is incorrect or flawed,

the fee incurred are entirely lawful and correct, and will not enter any further correspondence with you. your account of £196 remains outstanding and payment is required by return.

 

any thoughts????

 

 

 

 

This is NOT a good letter to receive from the council and sadly I am not surprised and any threat of blackmail must not be taken lightly.

 

I have not been responding to questions here on CAG within the past few weeks because BURP is posting the VERY SAME letters to EVERY SINGLE question being posted on the bailiff section. It was for this reason that I responded with this reply:

 

 

BURP.

 

I am very concerned at the type of letters that you are suggesting posters to send. In particular the one asking for "compensation" of £4,999.

 

It must be remembered that in the case of the bailiff company the letter will be going to somebody at a call centre and I am quite certain that this type of letter will be ignored.

 

In the letter that you have posted here there are further problems:

 

 

 

 

 

I have had an opportunity to seek advice and I write on the understanding that case law has ruled an authority is liable for its bailiffs.

 

On [DATE] I was visited by your bailiff collecting unpaid council tax. He left a document in a neighbours front garden and we were unable to reach an amicable resolve. The bailiff showed threatening behaviour and became defensive and vexatious in nature. He made unrealistic demands of money which are way beyond my means.

 

The poster has said that the bailiff knocked at the door and left after 10 seconds. How can this be making "unrealistic demands of money...or using "threatening" behaviour which was "defensive and vexatious"? Also she never spoke with the bailiff so how could there be a case where "we were unable to reach an amicable resolve".

 

I now ask the Council to:

 

a) Take the case back from the bailiff.

b) Accept my original offer to pay £[AMOUNT] a week to clear the arrears

c) Pay me a reasonable compensation for my inconvenience and for my efforts in seeking discovery of information and

d) Receiving an over-zealous bailiff acting for you making unrealistic demands of money and defrauding me with his fees.

a) This is almost impossible. It is very rare for this to happen.

 

b) As Karen has said....she had not made any agreement or offer to the council. She merely assumed that she could pay online.

 

c) This constant reference to compensation is silly. The maximum claim for a small claim action in court is £5,000. I believethat this is why you are stating in your many posts that the compensation that you are looking at is £4,999. However, it is NOT that easy to sue a bailiff company and you have the risk of losing and having to pay a bailiff companies legal costs. Also all that has happened here is that a letter was left outside.

 

d) This is dangerous and could get somebody into serious trouble. How can this one letter from a bailiff in any way be seen to be "defrauding me of fees".

If you fail to satisfactorily complete the above I will automatically escalate the complaint to the local government ombudsman in fourteen days from the date of this letter. Please treat this letter as Stage 1.

 

There are many rejections being made by the LGO on the basis that you must allow the council to fully investigate any complaint before sending it to the LGO.

[MARTIN3030]

It appears that there is conflicting advice here.

Burp could you please elaborate a little addressing the points TT raises.?

 

We should remember that each council are likely to react differently.So while we cannot use one example of a typical response,in the first instance we should look at whether any response can challenge the points in question with good effect, or moreso,be detrimental to the complainant.

[Guest BURP]

Edited.

I accept it cannot be used by a solicitor due to rules which an explanation is beyond the technical scope of this forum.

I advise users on the basis they are a litigant in person and they are well within their rights to ask for compensation where an official body has failed to comply with prescribed regulations. The £4999 I accept is generic but my posts do say Tweak as Required enabling the litigant to decide what their monetary losses are when calculating a compensation figure.

The litigant has a right to ask a court for the full sum being the maximum remit of the Small Claims Track and the court will advocate and may set a lower figure. The figure can decrease but it can rarely increase.

Edited

Evidently from this forum the template is working and attains positive results from bailiffs, except a rookie bailiff (on this thread) who chose to take a defensive stand and inadvertenedly admits defrauding a debtor with his fees. Further, edited has made wild claims of Section 8 (of the Distress for Rent Rules 1988) cases of costs being awarded against a Section 8 Complainant. (example)http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bailiffs-sheriff-officers/167756-bailiff-non-compliance-r.html#post1828435

I was at court the following Monday and searched the CSD for cases tomtubby described having a judge ordering costs against a Section 8 complainant (quote) to pay substantial legal costs for bringing a hopeless Form 4 Complaint to court, I could find no such cases. I widened the search to include all Section 8 case closures for the whole of England & Wales in the last 12 months and I could find no cases described these posts. I even asked for a case number on one occasion and my request was ignored. These cases completely fictitious. It is clear tomtubby is not a Solicitor and is definitely not in civil service given the factual inaccurate understanding of MOJ procedure (example) http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bailiffs-sheriff-officers/166972-philips-darlington-adding-fees.html?#post1799022 and can only mean he is from private sector.

edited (example) http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bailiffs-sheriff-officers/167066-rossendales-help.html?post1800264#post1800264 even to the point of contradicting his own advice and thinks a statutory declaration and an affidavit is the same thing. I only hope he isn't selling templates like these on his premium-rate numbers website. I understand the same website is involved in selling crown copyright material via premium-rate telephone numbers, information that is freely available from the Office of Public Sector Information. For those less informed, the database tomtubby refers to as (quote) our database (example) http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bailiffs-sheriff-officers/150580-unsigned-walking-possession-agreement.html#post1614127 for looking up bailiffs certificate dates is in actual fact the Ministry of Justice Public Register of Bailiffs. Anyone can phone on 020 3334 6355 and do a search and tomtubby purports that database to be his own property. I think this is a pretext to initiate telephone dialogue with forum users or take a discussion off-site. (examples) http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bailiffs-sheriff-officers/146248-marstons-group-drakes.html?post1543121#post1542679

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bailiffs-sheriff-officers/146462-bailiff-pcn.html#post1545163

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bailiffs-sheriff-officers/148996-help-needed-please-unfair.html#post1575397

 

edited

Edited November 22, 2008 by jonni2bad

[tomtubby]

BURP.

 

Once again you have posted a huge amount of incorrect information and from your answers it is clear that you have gone back to May 2008 to read all of my responses to try to find any that may help to show me in a bad light. However it would appear that you have failed.

 

Firstly, as most people on CAG know, I am a she....not he.

 

On the matter of a Form 4 Complaint please do be assured that we know of two such cases and I am sure that both parties would not want their personal court details here on CAG for all to see. Suffice to say, I know both cases very well. I was not involved in them and only knew of the complaints after both parties lost in court.

 

Your point on the matter of the bailiff register is also WRONG. As a poster found out just yesterday on a post that you answered !! errors can be made by the Ministry of Justice that can lead to serious problems if somebody acuses the bailiff of being uncertificated when he holds a perfectly valid certificate that the relevant court has not informed MOJ of.

 

The statutory regulations provide ONLY that all certificating court in the UK and Wales MUST provide a list of all certificated bailiffs to MOJ in FEBRUARY EACH YEAR. Some courts do send e-mails to MOJ each week/month etc when new bailiff's are certificated but there is NO legal requirement to do so. There is only a legal requirement to provide a YEARLY list.

 

Due to error made , our business applies to ALL certificating courts every 12 weeks for a list of all bailiff's registered and this is then put onto OUR database.I hope that this clarifies the point for you.

 

Finally, I have noted your statement that you advise all poster to "tweak the letter" on the matter of the £4,999.99.......wrong!!

Edited November 22, 2008 by tomtubby

[wildrob]

Hi all

 

please dont slag each other off.

 

i bet the bailiffs are having a right laugh.

 

any advice i use, i also know the advice right or wrong its me who has to answer.

 

how many times have you read that a letter used on here, that a bailiff says that im blackmailing them.

 

and i ask am i? if so how do i get out off it.

i am open to anyones advice, BUT IM BIG ENOUGH TO MAKE MY OWN CHOICE!!!

 

thanks please work together to beat the bailiffs

 

cheers

rob

[Messydesk]

I only made a comment about my experience with the bailiffs and my car - I did not offer any advice so I am not sure why I am being accused of giving incorrect advice!