can bailiff take car?

[TidyJoe]

Thought I'd add my two ha'penny for what it's worth. Unitil recently I worked for ten years in local government in the council tax section (don't want to say which council for obvious reasons but boy was I glad to get out!). I was a member of the Institute of Revenues Rating and Valuation and as part of my job I had plenty of experience dealing with bailiffs and answering chargepayers disputes about our own internal bailiffs and our external bailiff firm. I think TomTubby is right, the responses that you've had from the council and the bailiffs don't look good for you as it does look like you're trying to blackmail them!!!! I suspect it was probably the councils legal bods that answered your letter because you wanted compensation (it should say which department sent it?). If the council are happy that the bailiff has behaved properly then they have probably investigated and found that he has. As you wanted compensation I'm amazed that the bailiffs answered your letter at all (the council may have told them to) but from their response they don't seem that bothered, they've given you details of what they charged you and told you to get proper legal advice. They possibly have a legal team that deals with letters like yours and they have a point, demanding compensation could be seen as blackmail?!?!

 

TomTubby posting says that the letters that Burp have told you to send could land you in trouble and I think she's right. From what you say they did put a levy on your car and you did pay the council after they did this so the bailiff can look to collect their charges or take your car. Their first and second visit fees look wrong though, bailiffs charge £24.50 for the first visit and £18.00 for the second. A lot of Burps information is wrong, for example the council tax regs say that the bailiff can charge for calling to remove goods even if they don't take anything!!! (I think this is what they've charged the £125.00 for). John Kruses book covers all this, the IRRV also produce some reference books. Sadly you may have to bite the bullet on this one if they've charged you properly. I've never heard of a prosecution by the police in a case like yours under the Fraud Act 2006 and the bailiff or the council could make a complaint to the police to investigate your complaint for compensation if they persuade the police that it's actually blackmail. Where do you get the £450 from with the FSO?, bailiffs aren't regulated by the FSO!!!

 

I've been to court three times over the years to give evidence under Form 4 complainst against bailiffs (complainant lost all three times!) and I think you're pushing your luck a bit making a complaint to the court about this bailiff. The courts aren't going to be very happy that you've made a complaint if the bailiff has charged you properly and you are demanding "compensation" it could look like you're doing it just for the money (I'm not saying that you are!). If the judge wants to hear the bailiff give evidence you could also be summonsed to give evidence, if the bailiffs and the council shows your letters to the court and they agree it's blackmail they won't like it and won't treat it lightly; you could be in serious s**t! I'm not sure if you can withdraw your complaint, it may be too late, you'd need to contact the court to find out. Anyway good luck!

[wildrob]

Hi tidyjoe

thanks for your advice

i went to court because the bailiffs still have not given proof of visits.

the bailiffs says that they have proof and will provide it, when in court.

 

i was at home on all 3 visits by the bailiff, and NO letter or anyone knocked my door, i am happy to pay for the 1st visit i cant aruge about that.

 

but why should i pay £192 when there is no proof!!!

 

cheers

rob

[TidyJoe]

I've seen all this before Rob but its probably harder for you to prove that the bailiff didn't call than for him to prove that he did. He has a bailiff certificate so the court already think he is a 'fit and proper person' to have a certificate. He'll probably say that you were in and wouldn't/didn't open the door, etc, etc. Was it the same bailiff who made the first two visits? The court will look at the bailiffs past history, experience, how long has he had a certificate, has he had any complaints before, etc. The court aren't going to just cancel his certificate, not unless you can prove he's done something seriously wrong because if they do he'll probably get the sack! Did he do anything wrong when he called and did you tell the court in your Form 4 Complaint if he did?

 

TomTubby is right you haven't done yourself any favours writing and asking the bailiff and the council for compensation it does look like blackmail. You will get a grilling because the bailiff or his solicitor will say that you're only making a complaint because you don't want to pay his charges and are also trying to blackmail him of his firm. This could be bad news for you if the court agrees. Have you heard anything from the court yet? Have you spoken to your solicitor? if you're summonsed it may be better if your solicitor argues your complaint!

 

You're happy to pay for the first visit but you have posted that the bailiff did place a levy on you car and you paid the council after this so he can charge the cost for placing the levy as well. I've looked up the 1992 council tax regs today just to be sure but there is nothing in law to stop the bailiff calling on a first visit to remove your goods. He doesn't even have to send you any letter first. Technically he can charge £181.50 on a first visit!!!!!!! If he places a levy he can charge you the first visit fee £24.50, the levy fee £32.00 and a fee for "attending with a view to remove" £125.00 (or more)

 

You haven't said if you've heard from the bailiff recently? if you're causing them hassle they won't be looking to let you off the hook that easy they'll probably bide their time. From their letter they haven't backed down and are still after you for the balance. If they've gone quite they may just turn up and remove your car when you least expect it, they'll try to charge you for calling again, for clamping, for the tow truck and for any other "reasonable charges" so be prepared Rob!

 

Joe

Edited November 27, 2008 by TidyJoe
Dopey spelling errors!!!

[scatz1972]

"You're happy to pay for the first visit but you have posted that the bailiff did place a levy on you car and you paid the council after this so he can charge the cost for placing the levy as well. I've looked up the 1992 council tax regs today just to be sure but there is nothing in law to stop the bailiff calling on a first visit to remove your goods. He doesn't even have to send you any letter first. Technically he can charge £181.50 on a first visit!!!!!!! If he places a levy he can charge you the first visit fee £24.50, the levy fee £32.00 and a fee for "attending with a view to remove" £125.00 (or more)"

 

 

 

I didnt think that they could charge an 1st/2nd visit fee and levy fee in the same visit.

[wildrob]

Hi

 

i thought that the bailiffs could only charge £24.50 for the 1st visit.

and this is why im asking the bailiffs for proof.

if the bailiffs came before, they should of put a letter though my letterbox, and have a copy!!! i would like to see proof of visits.

 

rob

[TidyJoe]

Sorry!!! I didn't realise before that you live in Swansea in Wales. I knew some fees in Wales are a bit different so I've checked ( www.assemblywales.org ). The Wales council tax regs are set by the Welsh Assembly and say that a first visit is £22.50 and a second visit is £16.50.

 

I didn't say that the bailiff can charge a first and second visit charge on the same visit but he can definately charge for the first viist, the levy charge (when he placed a levy on your car) and a charge for "attending with a view to remove" if he was calling to remove your stuff. This comes to £179.50 (based on his attending to remove charge of £125.00). This could be charged even if they hadn't made any earlier visit before they called on the day you spoke to the bailiff. The response you've had from Andrew Jones Enforcements claims their bailiff called twice before and this is probably going to be your word against theirs in court. Your biggest worry is still that you've asked for compensation in some of your letters that they could produce in court. The bailiff you spoke to placed a levy on your car when he called to remove it so the charges could be a maximum of £196.00 i(f they had called twice or even once before which is what they allege) it may be hard to prove that the visits aren't bona fide. You can ask the court to check the charges that the bailiff has added but I believe you have to pay an application fee for the judge to do this.

 

You posted on 26th Oct that the bailiff did place a levy on your car?!? If you put this in writing in your Form 4 Complaint to the court it will make a BIG difference as to what charges the bailiff is entitled to. The bailiff can argue the council tax regs that he's entitled to at least £179.50 even without earlier visits and because you haven't paid any charges so far from my experience I think the court will think you've made your Form 4 Complaint to evade paying any of the bailiffs charges! I would have thought that you would have heard from the court by now? Have you checked to see whats happening? I know that the bailiff has fourteen days to reply to your complaint.

 

Don't forget if the bailiff can't find your car he can't remove it! While you may have to pay the charges that have been added so far if the bailiff can't find/remove your car he can't add any more charges!!!! May be worth you making an offer to pay the charges that YOU think you should have pay, it would look better to the court that you're paying something. If he removes your car he will charge for calling, for the tow truck and anything else that is "reasonable".

 

Remember if you haven't let the bailiff in your house he can't force his way in and can only look to remove what hes placed on his levy - your car and if he can't find it he can't take it!

Edited November 28, 2008 by TidyJoe

[scatz1972]

No I didnt mean 1st and 2nd I ment 1st visit or even 2nd visit plus a levy.

 

This is from national debt line,

 

For a visit to your home where no entry is made and a list of goods is not made

(i.e. a levy is not made) £24.50 for a first visit

£18.00 for a second visit

No further charges for further visits

 

i.e the bailiff cant call for the 1st time, do a levy and charge for a 1st visit plus the levy. He can only charge either for the levy or the visit.

 

 

Unless of course THEY dont know what they are talking about

Edited November 28, 2008 by scatz1972

[TidyJoe]

Yes of course you're right, he can't charge for the first visit and placing the levy at the same but he can charge for the levy and the charge for calling to remove (if that's what he was looking to do) if he doesn't charge the first or second visit charges. Not really relevant anyway because isn't the bailiff alleging that he's already made the first and second visits before he called and placed the levy?

[spamheed]

It appears that there is conflicting advice here.

Burp could you please elaborate a little addressing the points TT raises.?

 

We should remember that each council are likely to react differently.So while we cannot use one example of a typical response,in the first instance we should look at whether any response can challenge the points in question with good effect, or moreso,be detrimental to the complainant.

 

 

Whilst I claim no expertise in this area whatsoever, I would like to add my tuppence worth based on my own experiences.

 

I recently posted on this bailiffs forum as Bailiffs were threatening my girlfriend for old council tax after she had moved in with me and threatening to attend my property (not hers). My post was replied to (not by BURP) with several generic letters similar to those posted in this thread which were to be sent to council departments and bailiffs firms. My own instincts prevented me from sending these letters which may well have adversely affected my G/F's case

 

Eventually it was TomTubby's advice which pointed me in the right direction to resolve my problems, when I spoke to my own solicitor to confirm my best approach He stated that I had obviously done my homework and that apart from his signature on the SD in his opinion he had nothing more he could to add to my situation. (Hats off to TomTubby for the homework)

 

When the bailiffs eventually returned my g/f's account to the council (yes, it does happen) it was entirely down to the groundwork prepared by TomTubby.

[letsmakeamark]

Whilst I claim no expertise in this area whatsoever, I would like to add my tuppence worth based on my own experiences.

 

I recently posted on this bailiffs forum as Bailiffs were threatening my girlfriend for old council tax after she had moved in with me and threatening to attend my property (not hers). My post was replied to (not by BURP) with several generic letters similar to those posted in this thread which were to be sent to council departments and bailiffs firms. My own instincts prevented me from sending these letters which may well have adversely affected my G/F's case

 

Eventually it was TomTubby's advice which pointed me in the right direction to resolve my problems, when I spoke to my own solicitor to confirm my best approach He stated that I had obviously done my homework and that apart from his signature on the SD in his opinion he had nothing more he could to add to my situation. (Hats off to TomTubby for the homework)

 

When the bailiffs eventually returned my g/f's account to the council (yes, it does happen) it was entirely down to the groundwork prepared by TomTubby.

 

TT knows what is what when it comes to bailiff law. The only thing i want to ask is why are people so gullible in the sense that they will when in need accept help from anybody without realising the consequences ?

[tomtubby]

SPAMHEED.

 

Eventually it was TomTubby's advice which pointed me in the right direction to resolve my problems, when I spoke to my own solicitor to confirm my best approach He stated that I had obviously done my homework and that apart from his signature on the SD in his opinion he had nothing more he could to add to my situation. (Hats off to TomTubby for the homework)

 

When the bailiffs eventually returned my g/f's account to the council (yes, it does happen) it was entirely down to the groundwork prepared by TomTubby.

HEY.....I'm blushing !!!!

I remember this one now. I'm please the SD worked. It was my pleasure !!

[spamheed]

 

 

HEY.....I'm blushing !!!!

 

 

There are a few things in life that I very rarely do.

 

make promises

get drunk in public

insincerely flatter or praise to inflate peoples ego's

 

When faced with a lot of conflicting information, the assistance you gave me at the time I needed it was completely on the ball and in line with that of my solicitor. I must confess that since then i have personally referred to your site when seeking to assist others and i could only give credit as it is/was entirely due.

[letsmakeamark]

TT should be made a moderator for the bailiff section.

[scatz1972]

She would get my vote!

[palomino]

I must confess that since then i have personally referred to your site when seeking to assist others and i could only give credit as it is/was entirely due.

 

I didn't know TT had a web site - if the address is allowed to be posted here please can we have it.

[tomtubby]

As it is a commercial site, the moderators will not allow it to be mentioned.

[MARTIN3030]

TT is more than aware why the commercial link cannot be posted.

Additionally,equally aware why there is no pm facility in place.

Can we please have an answer to J2Bs request,which appears to be rather MORE of a concern.

[fwog]

TT knows what is what when it comes to bailiff law. The only thing i want to ask is why are people so gullible in the sense that they will when in need accept help from anybody without realising the consequences ?

 

Errr...... Would that mean there wouldn't be any need for this site?

 

Fwog

[MARTIN3030]

TT is more than aware why the commercial link cannot be posted.

Additionally,equally aware why there is no pm facility in place.

Can we please have an answer to J2Bs request,which appears to be rather MORE of a concern.

 

 

"

GlenW has already posted that their complaint has been received by the Court and that they are acting on it.

 

If there is anything else that you know of which GlenW needs to know, there is no reason why it can't be written here.

 

IF - and only IF - HMCS have made clear that contact numbers for staff who are PAID TO DEAL with complaints of this nature should never be made available to the very people who need to complain, then not only would we really need to raise the issue of why that is the case, but it would also bring into question the effectiveness of that provision, surely?

 

IF they have stated this, perhaps you could tell us where they have stated it - unless it's just an opinion about what some believe is not permitted."

[wildrob]

just an update

 

i paid the council tax online in full, however i did not pay the bailiffs fees of £196.

this has now gone back to the council and the council will take it out of my pay!!!

i have filled a form 4 complaint with the courts, and had a letter from the bailiffs saying that they are going to make a defence against the complaint.

and if successful will be asking for costs?

i have asked the council and bailiffs for copy's of any letter put though my door, and all i get back is bailiffs visted at this time and that time.

the bailiff made no effort to inform me of visit.

on the 3rd visit i ans door, and i am charged £196, levey on my car.

any idea how much the bailiffs legal costs would be?

[chris600uk]

That depends when the levy was made, if it was made AFTER you paid the council in full, then the levy is unlawful, and the bailiffs are only entitled to £24.50 for the first visit, and £18.00 for the second visit.

 

You shouldn't be answering the door to them.

You should be showering everyone who might be even remotely concerned with a blizzard of letters and emails.

[chris600uk]

Once the council is paid in full and before any goods are seized ( levied) then all enforcement action must stop because the liability order has been satisfied.

 

That means the bailiff would have to pursue their fees through the small claims court if you dispute their fees. They have no rights at all.

 

 

However, if you paid the council in full, AFTER goods were seized or levied then the bailiff still has the right to pursue his fees, although the council may help you if you speak to them.

 

You see? Timing is everything.

[wildrob]

Hi Chris

 

the 1st time i knew anything about the bailiffs was when i was charged £196. for 1st and 2nd visit, levy, and for van.

i never had any letters by post or hand.

i paid the council tax within days of visits.

i spoke to council they are help that bailiffs acted in the right manner.

i have asked both the council and bailiffs for proof of visits and letter sent in posted by hand.

all i get is a date and time.

 

cheers

rob

[wildrob]

i had a letter from the courts, a circuit judge looked at it and throw it out!!!

i did not tell the bailiffs that i needed my car for work.

and the bailiff never said that they will go and get a tow truck!!

 

the judge seems to take the bailiffs word, and not mine.

 

and the judge does not required the bailiff to attend court.

 

i had my lawyer send a letter to the bailiffs and council.

i informed the bailiff twice and phoned them.

 

in the end, i have paid the council tax, and now the bailiff fee will be taken out of my wages.

the bailiffs still have not proved that their visited my house on the said dates.

what can i do?

 

cheers

rob

[letsmakeamark]

It seems like you have still followed burps directions.