Bus lane PCN

[al4567]

My Girlfriend has managed to pick up a Bus lane PCN for being in the stupidly short "outside lane" bus lane on the north side of the approach to Hammersmith roundabout.

 

We appealed the ticket on the basis that the signs were incorrect, and that no deflection arrows were painted on the road.

 

For those that don't know it, you travel south towards the roundabout in the outer lane, avoiding the bus lane on the inside. In the last 100 metres you are deflected as a car into the inside lane, as the buses leaving the nearby bus stop then cross to the outer lane and the very short bus lane to allow them to go into the bus station in the centre of the roundabout.

 

Hammersmith and Fulham have written back saying they will proceed with the PCN as due to the unique nature of this bus lane, they decided not to paint the deflection arrows in the road as it would be confusing.

I think they've just shot themselves in the foot! I'm pretty certain that it's a requirement that the deflection arrows be present, but I'm struggling to find written ecidence of this requirement. Can any one hlep and point me to it? I've searched a lot but am just not finding it for the present.

 

Amongst the papers I asked for under the Freedom of infomation act, it transpires they earn an average of £73,000 a year from this tiny section of bus lane!

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Alex.

[BaldyBaldwin]

i know this bis lane well, did you cross the solid white line to get into the inside lane?

[BaldyBaldwin]

have you seen any cctv or video evidence?

[BaldyBaldwin]

try searching under "road traffic manual" might find something

[al4567]

A bus was at the bus stop when we approached, which obscures the signs. It pulled away in front of us thereby partially covering up the hatched diagonal entry to the bus lane. It was too late by then as we had come to a stop and couldn't pull out of the bus lane as there was waiting traffic on the inside lane.

 

I'm keen to find the definitive regulation about the deflection arrows as it's the key issue I think, given H&F council have on paper admitted they decided not to implement them.

 

Also a lot of bus lane warning signs seem to be placed after the actual start of the lane? I would of thought it essential that they be placed before the start? I wonder if that is the case... but many councils use existing poles to save on planting new ones?

 

Alex.

[Guest Ting]

Al. Link to a fairly comprehensive summary that answers many of the questions you raise.

How to appeal unfair bus lane tickets

 

I reccomend you check the info against the Traffic Signs Manual as mentioned above. Available via DfT site.

Also Traffic Signs General Regulations and Directions 2002.

 

Link to both here.

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Department for Transport - Traffic Signs and Signals

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[patdavies]

try searching under "road traffic manual" might find something

 

Never heard of it.

 

Try searching under Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002. Chapter 3 of the Traffic Signs Manual doesn't help as it only refer to nearside and contraflow bus lanes and advises that for offside bus lanes, that the DFT be contacted for advice. It may be worth doing an Freedom of Information Act request of the borough council for a copy of that advice.

[al4567]

Just a note really, having gone through all the manuals tec. It appears that H&F do not have Diagram 959.... which is regulatory, and therefore "required" if I am right, at the start of the bus lane(solid white line). They have managed to put Diagram 958 at this point instead of ahead of the start of the taper.

 

I now have to find the adjudicator I guess, or do I wait until H&F send us more bumf when we don't pay?

 

Al.

[Guest Ting]

Just a note really, having gone through all the manuals tec. It appears that H&F do not have Diagram 959.... which is regulatory, and therefore "required" if I am right, at the start of the bus lane(solid white line). They have managed to put Diagram 958 at this point instead of ahead of the start of the taper.

 

I now have to find the adjudicator I guess, or do I wait until H&F send us more bumf when we don't pay?

 

Al.

 

1/. 959/958 are sailing over my head at the moment cos don't have time to look. I think you need to also heed what Pat said about offside lanes. If they have special approval from DfT then DfT will be able to tell you.

If that is the case then it can be worth checking that the Council adhered to any adjustments that DfT required.

 

2/. On the next steps. As you haven't shown the PCN I can't answer. Various London Boroughs use various versions of legislation. For some, the PCN serves as a 'Notice to Owner' and you just get the one shot at appeal via 'formal representations'. For others, the PCN is followed, at 28 days, by an 'Enforcement Notice' which is equiv NtO. Need to see what you've got really.

 

As you say H&F have responded that will either be a rejection of an informal challenge or a 'Notice of Rejection to Formal Representations'. If the latter then they will have included forms to apply to the Adjudicator.

You need to clarify and, ideally, show all documents - could be flawed.

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[al4567]

958 is the blue sign showing the start of the bus lane with taper, it should be placed ahead of the taper to give warning. H&F have placed this at the actual start of the solid white line portion of the bus lane.

They should have put the regulatory sign 959 there, which is the blue sign with the vehicles allowed and the times of operation only(not showing the taper).

 

H&F have responded by letter, disagreeing with my points.The letter gives notice of how we can pay, and also how to challenge it.

 

................................................................................

"1. If you do not pay, we will send you an 'Enforcement Notice' to the keepr. this form offers the keeper the chance to formally challenge the PCN, or to pay the full charge(by this time it will be too late to take advantage of the discount)> If you are not the registered keepr, let them know what you decide to do."

 

"2. If we still disagree with you, the keeper can take the case to the Adjudication Service. The adjudicator is independent and his or her decision is binding on both sides."

................................................................................

 

So as you say Ting, it's an enforcement notice next by the looks of it. There are no forms included this time for an adjudicator.

 

I was under the impression that if it went to an adjudicator, and they decided against you, you still could pay the reduced rate?

 

Many thanks everyone, this is all very much appreciated!

 

Alex.

[al4567]

Just noticed that they took 48 working days to respond to my Freedom of information request(which included the traffic order on the buslane). They are allowed 20 working days, unless a fee is payable. no such request was made, so I guess they've broken the law. I wonder how this can influence any outcome on this PCN?

 

Alex.

[Guest Ting]

So as you say Ting, it's an enforcement notice next by the looks of it. There are no forms included this time for an adjudicator.

 

I was under the impression that if it went to an adjudicator, and they decided against you, you still could pay the reduced rate?

 

Many thanks everyone, this is all very much appreciated!

 

Alex.

 

You have to wait for the EN then. That allows you to make formal reps. For most Councils the informal challenge like the one you have made is dealt with by the postboy or dustbin men. Formal representations can possibly go as high as the tea lady for more sensible consideration.

 

On te sign issue, like i said, enquire with DfT. Quite helpful IME.

 

You generally lose the discount option as they have said. Hwever i was once told that the Adjudicator actually has the power to re-apply it if you are not successful in certain circumstances. i'm not sure but it came from a knowledgable source.

 

You really should show that PCN - and the EN when you get it - if i'm still around (you'll find me on PePiPoo if i'm not). If either is flawed it can help you a lot.

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From what you say - statute on the top of your PCN will be RTRA 1984 and LLA Act 1996 - correct or not?

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[patdavies]

From what you say - statute on the top of your PCN will be RTRA 1984 and LLA Act 1996 - correct or not?

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If Ting is correct, the liability rests with the driver, not the owner; any challenge is in a Magistrates' Court

[Guest Ting]

If Ting is correct, the liability rests with the driver, not the owner; any challenge is in a Magistrates' Court

 

Nope. Not quite sure i understand it myself but it seems maybe the LLA takes precedence. All are dealt with as decrim.

 

I was only presuming anyway, based on what he had said so far. The acts quoted are used by Newham (got it wrong until changed paperwork 18/4/08), Barnet (been getting it wrong for ages and after a long fight with them being totally intransigent have finally rolled over after PATAS defeats and are now cancelling off their own backs! Unsure if paperwork corrected since latest PATAS win) Also I think I recall Kingston using that version of leg.

 

Others use RTRA84 + LLA 2003 or 96-03 or even 1990-2003 I think I've seen.

 

I think I've seen some that use RTA 91 instead of RTRA ?

 

Whatever - it's an appalling situation because the documents you receive will be very different and have different procedures depending where you are in London. How are the public supposed to know!

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[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Does this thread help.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/parking-traffic-offences/139627-bus-lane-pcn.html?highlight=kidbrooke

[al4567]

I have found the PCN(big clear up this week and relocated it somewhere too safe to find:-) And will scan it and post it in the next couple of days.

 

My girlfriend is keen to write to them to say we will fight it and take it to the adjudicator. I wonder if it's a good opportunity to also mention that they've messed up on the FOI front too?

 

Alex.

 

Again thanks everyone!

[crem]

I wonder if it's a good opportunity to also mention that they've messed up on the Freedom of Information Act front too?

 

 

I suspect the FoI problem is a seperate issue (and could be reported to the information commisioner I believe) but will not necessarily have a baring on the PCN appeal itself.

[Guest Ting]

I suspect the Freedom of Information Act problem is a seperate issue (and could be reported to the information commisioner I believe) but will not necessarily have a baring on the PCN appeal itself.

 

i agree generally.

 

if, however it had to proceed to PATAS, presuming a reason for appeal can be found, then that kind of obstruction would help sway the Adjudicator in your favour.

 

As much as OP 'considers' the bus lane ridiculous that may be no grounds for appeal. As Pat said it is quite likely this has approval from DfT - however daft it is.

 

Really is foolish to be appealing on just one issue when it is far from clear if it will be shot down.

still recommend the docs should be checked for compliance - given the Patas victories.

also no point in wasting further ink now cos they are most likely to ignore. Formal reps in response to the EN is next step.

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[al4567]

I have the Enforcement notice now, which is here below the original PCN. Sorry it took so long to post. Would much appreciate a look by yourselves if you can.

 

Image of PCN - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

 

Image of EN - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

 

 

Alex.

[Guest Ting]

Need to see the rest of them, they are legal documents.

 

Not seeing anything wrong with either so far - might have missed something - don't think so.

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[redvarus]

If you are committed to your appeal then this may help and personally I encourage you to persevere.

My girlfriend received a PCN at same place as Bernie_the_Bolt so his thread will be useful to you: Bus Lane PCN

At first, she was ready to pay the fine, but I thought it was so unfair considering the circumstances. It happened on Sunday night at 00:25 in rainy and dark conditions in unfamiliar area, not to mention the pathetic nature of the bus lane (Kidbrooke Park Road).

Anyway, I constructed an appeal using similar details as Bernie_the_Bolt and after some time we received a formal rejection, which we sort of expected. At this stage having not much to lose, since the discount period (within 14 days = £60) had expired, we appealed to the adjudicator. Sure enough we got a response as promised and the appeal was allowed on grounds that there was no breach of the bus lane order or regulation. Now, adjudicator's reason was that the Local Authority did not send any evidence. I am not sure if this means; to the adjudicator or to us, since we did not receive any requested evidence either (i.e. Traffic Order, etc.) see Bus Lane PCN. Therefore the adjudicator could not be satisfied that the contravention occurred.

It seems to me if you push it far enough the Local Authority will give up. They appear to count on you paying the fine before it goes to the adjudicator and thus get their money. If they submit evidence and lose this would mean every person who received a PCN at same location would not be liable. That's how I would interpret it.

If you need any more info or help, I can try and provide you with support although I do not follow these forums that much. I believe there are too many unfair PCN's and the amount of revenue they generate is unacceptable.

Regards and good luck!

RV

[klh234]

same happened to me here this stupid bit of road is so confusing! i havent a clue on how to appeal and read you can only do it once so want to do it right i just paid out for car insurance new tyres and to fix my exhaust dont want to pay this as well, i was on my way to work and its a days wages!! please help this is my notice: avaliable at postimage dot org/image/79av6o6u3

 

i read that there is no end of bus lane sign, is this still true?

 

 

thanks

 

kate