American Express. CCA/SARS Pack.

[jon888999]

Hi.

I've recently CCA'd & Sar'd Amex over a Blue Card Account. They've replied with a very comprehensive pack. It's made me more certain that this account is unenforceable for the following reasons.

This account is from 1999, still held by AMEX & managed by Stevens Drake.

1) A form clearly marked as an application form has been sent claiming to be an agreement. This only has my details on, no prescribed terms and no signature from amex. No interest rates, no mentionis is made to any other terms or conditions. So pretty certain that this is unenforceable.

2) At no time do I recall receiving a default notice for this account and I specifically requested this as part of my SAR'S request. Although a default notice is mentioned in the transcript no copy has been provided. even if a default notice exists will it be invalid due to the charges below being included in it?

 

3) A large amount of payment protection is included in the outstanding balance. I remember disputing this prevously and do not recall ever asking for this. No trace can be found of requesting this in the pack AMEX has sent.

4) A large amount of penalty charges is included in the outstanding balance. Late payment fee of £25.00.

5) I've entered all the penalty and insurance charges into the spreadsheet to calculate 8% interest due and find that the amount on here is £200 more then my outstanding balance!

 

So now what to do next?

The way I see it is that this account is probably unenforceable. So do I try and claim back charges and insurance? or do i wait and hope they pursue me through the county court system , then defend and make a counter claim?

Any thoughts anybody?

Thanks

[42man]

Just out of interest how far back do the statements go ?

 

As for the charges....if they add up + 8% compounded interest to close to what you owe them, then you could make them a F & F (bearing in mind the unenforceable CCA).....

[jon888999]

Just out of interest how far back do the statements go ?

 

As for the charges....if they add up + 8% compounded interest to close to what you owe them, then you could make them a F & F (bearing in mind the unenforceable CCA).....

The statements go back to august 2001>

The charges including insurance come to £200 MORE then the oustandingt balance!

So is it Amex who should offer me a f&f

[42man]

Get that claim in....if you need a compounded interest calculator there is a good one here.... - Bank Charges: Reclaim them, they’re unlawful, inc. free template letters ...

[jon888999]

Get that claim in....if you need a compounded interest calculator there is a good one here.... - Bank Charges: Reclaim them, they’re unlawful, inc. free template letters ...

Hi, I've inputted the info and came up with these figures.

 

Total charges £1,973.49 8% interest£704.07

Total Claimed £2,677.5

Balance as of 31/07/08 £2522.00.

Payment made August 08 £15.00 Payment made September 08 £15.00

Current Balance £2492

Refund due £185.56

Now I need to write a letter. Any ideas?

I can't believe that a month and a half ago they were threatening legal action if I didn't increase my payment. Lucky they did or I would never have Sar'd them.

If I get this refund and the debt written off I will definitely being making a contribution to this site!

Thanks

Edited September 26, 2008 by jon888999
Added figures.

[jon888999]

Hi, I've inputted the info and came up with these figures.

 

Total charges £1,973.49 8% interest£704.07

Total Claimed £2,677.5

Balance as of 31/07/08 £2522.00.

Payment made August 08 £15.00 Payment made September 08 £15.00

Current Balance £2492

Refund due £185.56

Now I need to write a letter. Any ideas?

I can't believe that a month and a half ago they were threatening legal action if I didn't increase my payment. Lucky they did or I would never have S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)'d them.

If I get this refund and the debt written off I will definitely being making a contribution to this site!

Thanks

 

bump

[jon888999]

Letter done, ready to be posted by SD monday.

I can now see why my debts are so large, mainly because of charges, makes me feel better about going down the unenforceable route.

Meant to say I gave them 14 days to remove defaults and refund all unlawful charges.

Looking at this no wonder lttlewoods haven't replied to my SARS request yet. Balance of account only 165 approx. Charges over 6 years will be far more. I'll start a seperate thread about that one.

Edited September 28, 2008 by jon888999
Added info

[jon888999]

Letter done, ready to be posted by SD monday.

I can now see why my debts are so large, mainly because of charges, makes me feel better about going down the unenforceable route.

Meant to say I gave them 14 days to remove defaults and refund all unlawful charges.

Looking at this no wonder lttlewoods haven't replied to my SARS request yet. Balance of account only 165 approx. Charges over 6 years will be far more. I'll start a seperate thread about that one.

 

Posted today. I await there barrage of Sh-- now!!

[jon888999]

Posted today. I await there barrage of Sh-- now!!

The Post office Confirms that both letters to amex and Stevens Drake were delivered on the 30th! I was awaiting the postman today hoping for a threatogram! Nothing though! Still the clocks running! Better get writing my letter before action!

[jon888999]

Hi,

The latest news. Amex are investigating my allegations of unlawful charges, however i'm sure the outcome of this investigation is a forgone conclusion!

In respect to my Ageement Amex have now sent another copy of the original application form and the terms and conditions supposedly from the back> These terms and conditions contain the presecribed terms. However are they enforceable as they are not on the signature document? Nor is there anymention of them being overleaf.

Are Amex likely to still have the original Application form? This would be the only way that they could prove that they are overleaf?

Any help greatly received.

Many Thanks Jon

[jon888999]

Bump-Anythoughts anyone?

[42man]

Unenforceable in my opinion....and I know the application you have too as I had one...

[42man]

How much do you have in the way of excessive charges to reclaim Jon ? - apologies...seen it above !!

[jon888999]

Unenforceable in my opinion....and I know the application you have too as I had one...

Thanks, 42man. Got to decide what to do next.

[42man]

The thing is it seems they owe you more than you owe them....so I think you should start the charge reclaim.....although reclaiming beyond the 6 years could be tricky....

[jon888999]

Unenforceable in my opinion....and I know the application you have too as I had one...

 

Hi. Had a letter today from stevensdarke, basicly telling me how dare I suggest that the agreement isn't enforceable, apparently I have to prove what statutes they have breached. I will tell them they simply have to comply with statutory requirements & it's not my job to tell them where they are failing!

Also I have to prove the terms and conditions weren't on the back of the form!!

Will write back reminding them they have to prove the terms and Conditions were on the back, but in any case the agreement would be unenforceable! I will even offer to visit amex to view the original document (with my solictor of course)

Going to tell them to prove it is enforceable!

Oh their favourite word is demonstratably! So think mine will be Strict proof and vexatious! Oh that's three words.

Oh gave them a phone number, well the pest control dept at the council!

Think they are rattled now! Well Katy Gossling is anyway!

Is it better to wait to see if they take action against me, then counter claim against them for my charges?

Thanks Jon

[jon888999]

bump!

[42man]

You might find this interesting -

 

A valid credit agreement must contain certain terms within the signature document (s.60(1)(2) CCA 1974). These core terms are the credit limit, repayment terms and the rate of interest (SI 1983/1553 (6 Signing of agreement) which states that the prescribed terms must be within the signature document. (Column 2 schedule 6). s.61(1)(a) states the agreement must contain all the prescribed terms and be signed by both the debtor and on behalf of the creditor.

 

Further, s.127(3) CCA 1974 makes the account unenforceable if it is not in the proper form and content or improperly executed.

 

In Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd (2007) it was stated “In my judgment the objective of Schedule 6 is to ensure that, as an inflexible condition of enforceability, certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties … and/or the court can identify within the four corners of the agreement. Those minimum provisions combined with the requirement under s.61 that all the terms should be in a single document, and backed up by the provisions of section 127(3), ensure that these core terms are expressly set out in the agreement itself: they cannot be orally agreed; they cannot be found in another document; they cannot be implied; and above all they cannot be in the slightest mis-stated. As a matter of policy, the lender is denied any room for manoeuvre in respect of them. On the other hand, they are basic provisions, and the only question for the court is whether they are, on a true construction, included in the agreement”.

[jon888999]

You might find this interesting -

 

A valid credit agreement must contain certain terms within the signature document (s.60(1)(2) CCA 1974). These core terms are the credit limit, repayment terms and the rate of interest (SI 1983/1553 (6 Signing of agreement) which states that the prescribed terms must be within the signature document. (Column 2 schedule 6). s.61(1)(a) states the agreement must contain all the prescribed terms and be signed by both the debtor and on behalf of the creditor.

 

Further, s.127(3) CCA 1974 makes the account unenforceable if it is not in the proper form and content or improperly executed.

 

In Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd (2007) it was stated “In my judgment the objective of Schedule 6 is to ensure that, as an inflexible condition of enforceability, certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties … and/or the court can identify within the four corners of the agreement. Those minimum provisions combined with the requirement under s.61 that all the terms should be in a single document, and backed up by the provisions of section 127(3), ensure that these core terms are expressly set out in the agreement itself: they cannot be orally agreed; they cannot be found in another document; they cannot be implied; and above all they cannot be in the slightest mis-stated. As a matter of policy, the lender is denied any room for manoeuvre in respect of them. On the other hand, they are basic provisions, and the only question for the court is whether they are, on a true construction, included in the agreement”.

Thanks 42 MAN,Thats what I thought, I understood that being on the reverse wasn't acceptable. I probaly going to wait for Amex to make the next move. Then it will be them being put to strict proof and not me> Well that's if I understand the system correctly.

 

Takecare Jon

[jon888999]

Just got a letter from Vil Collections demanding full payment, sent them account in dispute go away letter. Wait for their next move.

Funny thing is letter didn't even had a account number and the amount was incorrect?

[jon888999]

Just got a letter from Vil Collections demanding full payment, sent them account in dispute go away letter. Wait for their next move.

Funny thing is letter didn't even had a account number and the amount was incorrect?

 

Just to update everybody had a letter from Vilcollections in January saying pay up or they'd commence court action in 7 days, sent back a equally blunt letter saying I look forward to that as I would counter claim for all the Unlawful charges and Unauthorised Insurance chagres and 8% interest, not heard any more. They signed for my letter on the 26th Of January 2009.

takecare

Jon

[jon888999]

Hi.

I've recently CCA'd & Sar'd Amex over a Blue Card Account. They've replied with a very comprehensive pack. It's made me more certain that this account is unenforceable for the following reasons.

This account is from 1999, still held by AMEX & managed by Stevens Drake.

1) A form clearly marked as an application form has been sent claiming to be an agreement. This only has my details on, no prescribed terms and no signature from amex. No interest rates, no mentionis is made to any other terms or conditions. So pretty certain that this is unenforceable.

2) At no time do I recall receiving a default notice for this account and I specifically requested this as part of my SAR'S request. Although a default notice is mentioned in the transcript no copy has been provided. even if a default notice exists will it be invalid due to the charges below being included in it?

 

3) A large amount of payment protection is included in the outstanding balance. I remember disputing this prevously and do not recall ever asking for this. No trace can be found of requesting this in the pack AMEX has sent.

4) A large amount of penalty charges is included in the outstanding balance. Late payment fee of £25.00.

5) I've entered all the penalty and insurance charges into the spreadsheet to calculate 8% interest due and find that the amount on here is £200 more then my outstanding balance!

 

So now what to do next?

The way I see it is that this account is probably unenforceable. So do I try and claim back charges and insurance? or do i wait and hope they pursue me through the county court system , then defend and make a counter claim?

Any thoughts anybody?

Thanks

 

Hi, after making a complaint to Amex and being refused, I went down the FOS route, FOS ruled in my favour for the PPI, Amex denied this, so went to executive dept, who still denied. So scanned in letter from FOS and emailed it. To cut a long story short Amex have agreed to refund PPI, charges interest etc and promised the credit balance will be in my account on Friday!

Now my next step is to go for compensation for harrassment with them chasing a debt that clearly never existed.

Oh it's costing them about £2500 more then it would have done plus the FOS referall fee, so the long and short of it is don't give up.

[DesperateSusan]

That's good news.

 

The post prior to your yesterday's post was in 2009 - has it really taken that long?

[citizenB]

That's good news.

 

The post prior to your yesterday's post was in 2009 - has it really taken that long?

 

It can indeed take up to 2 years or more for the FOS to complete an investigation !!!

 

 

Well done Jon for persevering

[jon888999]

Yes they have argued every bit of the way, although I did let it go quiet for quite a while as where else can you make 8% these days!