Extortionate interest rate after a couple of late (but not unpaid) payments

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello FBR!

 

I think it boils down to if they have the Original and if the two Scans are the front and back of the same Document/Sheet.

 

If they have, then it could be Enforceable.

 

If they don't, then I'd fight them all the way.

 

Have a read of this Post by Paul Wilton:

 

Letters from DTI /Oft Regarding CCA1974 Issues – Post #49

 

Another factor...if the Application Form was filled in by an Agent, and the Application Form remained firmly fixed to a Clipboard, then whatever was on the back was never shown to you.

 

If it was an Application Form they sent you, and they do have the Original, then they can reasonably claim you had every opportunity to read both sides.

 

If it was an Application Form that their Agent kept stuck to a Clipboard, then you can reasonably argue that the document was never in your control, and you were never given an opportunity to inspect it and read if anything was on the back. Even if they have an Original, did they let you see it? If you see my point, the Document was never under your control at any stage.

 

(1) No original Agreement (assumed from the Microfiche Scans).

 

(2) Was there anything on the rear of the Application Form Signature Page.

 

(3) If there was, they must prove they showed the rear to you.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[fleeced_by_rbos]

Thanks BRW. I am sure that the application form was stuck to a clipboard at all times and was filled in by the rep who asked the questions and then handed it to me to sign. Yes I know, a silly way to apply for credit, but when a 2 pretty ladies catch your intention while passing through a service station, I became weak! ;-)

 

I don't recall being shown the Ts&Cs on the reverse of the form and only vaguely remember being given a copy of them in a separate document to walk away with.

 

My feeling is that the so called agreement they have sent back to me is not a properly executed agreement because

1. it is an application form without the prescribed terms in the four corners of the agreement;

2. makes no reference to the Ts&Cs that were supposedly on the reverse;

3. refers to some other document containing Ts&Cs without being specific;

4. has no place for an authorised representative to execute the agreement; and

5. their sign-up approach encourages people to apply without seeing the agreement in full, which may contravene rules on the advertising of credit

 

Anyone have any comments on those points?

 

Cheers

FBR

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello FBR!

 

All sounds valid to me.

 

Maybe lock into the following phrase:

 

No Prescribed Terms contained within the four corners of the alleged Agreement.

 

The Act doesn't mention embodied, whereas it does mention contained! Embodied suggests Terms can be linked into the alleged Agreement from elsewhere, whereas contained means just that...they must be within the four corners of document itself.

 

Not being critical, just getting you used to trotting out the phrase that covers all the angles!

 

Cheers,

BRW

Edited January 18, 2009 by banker_rhymes_with
Making it prettier to read!

[fleeced_by_rbos]

Thanks very much BRW, I never thought of the phrasing "contained" vs "embodied" or similar term. I prepped a letter to MBNA along the lines of that sent by Alphageek, off it goes by registered post tomorrow. I'm sure they'll still chase and add interest etc as that is the way of MBNA, but I'm going to fight them all the way.

 

Thanks again BRW. All the best

FBR

[cosalt]

I love the bit that says 'I understand this is an application for a credit card' And you have to initial it!

 

I wonder why the text in the pick your plastic box is wonky?

 

I think where the CCA states the prescribed terms should be within the four corners it intended it to mean that that they should be on the same side as you were signing so you could have no excuse for not having read them.

 

My opinion is that if you have to turn the page over they are not contained within the four corners, if you think about it your eyes have to leave the four corners of the first page to read the back. Even if it said on the front 'please turn over' it is telling you to leave the four corners of the agreemnt to read something else. When have you ever seen a HP agreement with the prescribed terms on the back, they know full well they should be on the front.

[fleeced_by_rbos]

Indeed Cosalt, I take "four corners" as meaning on the same page as you sign, but perhaps it doesn't mean that legally. Anyone know for sure?

 

I like the way MBNA/Virgin devote more page space to "pick your plastic" than laying out the terms and conditions! They are such morons.

[cosalt]

Indeed Cosalt, I take "four corners" as meaning on the same page as you sign, but perhaps it doesn't mean that legally. Anyone know for sure?

 

I like the way MBNA/Virgin devote more page space to "pick your plastic" than laying out the terms and conditions! They are such morons.

 

Interestingly I just asked my wife what she would consider 'contained within the four corners' meant when reffering to a document, and could that mean the back. Her reply was 'How can it be on the back, that means it is contained within 8 corners' I think she has a point !

[chrisofoak]

Hi, just my 2 penneth but I thought it had to be an agreement rather than an application form! to be enforceable, not 100% as just investigating myself. I have 3 cards with MBNA, one Virgin who started charging me 30% even though I had never missed a payment, the other are at 25%. I'm now defaulting on a total of £150k of debt due to my business income more than halving.

[cosalt]

Hi Chris, I am in a similar situation to you by the sound of it , I am around the £120K mark.

 

Pretty sure that an application form can double as an agreement providing it has the prescribed terms, and is executed properly. However very few of them are.

[chrisofoak]

Hi

Part of the reason I'm in this mess are the rates I'm being charged, if you look at the level of our debt 25% is £30,000 - £37,500 pa before you even think of repaying the capital! Not a chance, my bank Barclays, doubled their rate over night on my overdraft no reason, Cahoot trebled theirs over 6 months, I have never defaulted on a loan and I'm 44.

 

The only ones I feel guilty about are the 2 recent interest free cards I took just before it all went tits up.

 

Anyway I've no equity so I suppose it's a chance to get straight, at least I hope so.

Chris

[AA99]

SORRY, THIS IS A QUOTE FROM FLEECED BELOW

 

I emailed the OFT about interest rate hikes and this is the reply I got (very speedily I may add - within a couple of hours):

 

Quote:

There are no legislative caps on the interest rates that lenders can charge, and lenders can set their own rates. During the review of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which led to it being amended by the Consumer Credit Act 2006, the DTI - now BERR (the Department for Business, Enterprise & Regulatory Reform) - analysed independent research and decided not to introduce an interest rate ceiling in the UK.

In December 2008 credit card companies agreed a set of 'fair principles' on increases in credit card interest rates and dealing with borrowers in difficulty. Please see the BERR press release at: http://nds.coi.gov.uk/environment/fullDetail.asp?ReleaseID= 387325&NewsAreaID=2&Navig atedFromDepartment=True

The press release mentions complaining to card providers about interest rate hikes and taking unresolved complaints to the Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS). You can find information on the FOS on their website www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk

For information, for general advice on consumer credit and other consumer issues you can contact Consumer Direct or another advice agency. We publish a list of organisations that provide help and advice on credit and debt issues on the Consumer Direct website at: http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/after_you_buy/money_and_credit/debt-counselling/ The phone number for Consumer Direct is 08454 04 05 06.

 

 

Is/has there been any follow-up on those principles agreed in December 2008 that I should know about:confused: I hadn't noticed any of my creditors applying them:eek:

Edited March 4, 2009 by AA99

[fleeced_by_rbos]

I've sent a letter of CCA non-compliance to MBNA a week ago - the letter was similar to Alphageek's and some bits from elsewere with my own slight rewording.

 

But today, I receive a letter from Paul Campbell stating that I will be defaulted in the new few days if I don't pay them some money NOW! Lots of silly threats as usual including "you won't be a customer of MBNA anymore" - ohhh my, I am so, so, upset at that! F****** morons!

 

They have ignored the fact that my letter stated the account is now in legal dispute and that they cannot pass it to 3rd party, register defaults, etc, etc, but the letter states they will pass it on and the 3rd party will do whatever they deem appropriate to recover the money -- more MBNA threats.

 

Anyone have an idea of what is the best cause of action now? Ignore the silly prat that is Paul Campbell or send another letter outlining the fact they are now violating more laws by continuing their farcical collection activities?

 

Cheers

FBR

[Bradley68]

I am new to this, my first post. I have an MBNA card, have been reading all threads. My interest rate has gone from 15.9% to 34.9% over 6 years. have requested CCA and have also discovered unfair relationship under the enterprise act 2002 part 8. Does anybody have any info on this. thanks Bradley68

[phatram]

Hi Bradley,

open a thread of your own in either MBNA or General Debt section, so we can follow your progress.

[landy_alert]

I've sent a letter of CCA non-compliance to MBNA a week ago - the letter was similar to Alphageek's and some bits from elsewere with my own slight rewording.

 

Hi FBR,

 

Hope you don't mind, but I am dealing with MBNA on behalf of OH and his agreement is very similar to yours with dodgy looking T&Cs on the reverse which we don't believe were ever there originally, so I am very interested in your experience with them.

 

He signed up for his at a premiership football match and like yourself the application was filled out by the sales person (female, I hasten to add;)) and as far as he can remember the document stayed firmly fixed to the clipboard she used the whole time. He never saw the back of it and wasn't given a copy to take away.

 

You say you have sent a non-compliance letter to MBNA based upon one written by Alphageek - I have tried to find this letter, but have had no luck so far. Would you mind pointing me in the direction of it please:D

 

Am subbing to your thread so I can follow your progress.

 

OH's account has recently been sold to a DCA and up till now we had believed the agreement to be enforceable, but your thread has given me some hope - so thank you for that!

 

Regards,

 

Landy x

[Viscount Stair]

I am new to this, my first post. I have an MBNA card, have been reading all threads. My interest rate has gone from 15.9% to 34.9% over 6 years. have requested CCA and have also discovered unfair relationship under the enterprise act 2002 part 8. Does anybody have any info on this. thanks Bradley68

I'm putting this here because it has general application - it is relevant to Bradley68's question but also to others too.

 

The new Unfair Relationships regime is found at sections 140A-140D of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and was inserted into the 1974 Act as part of the package of amendments made in the 2006 Act.

 

I am not aware of any precedents that have been set under the new provisions yet - although, when I asked on the board before if anyone knew of any, I was told that there are cases in the pipeline.

 

The OFT has issued guidance on Unfair Relationships and the Enterprise Act 2002 because it has powers (and indeed a duty) under the 2002 Act to take action in relation to take action in relation to problems affecting consumers generally.

 

That does not affect your ability to make an application of your own for an order under section 140B in relation to your own agreement.

 

I do not know whether an application against the Amazing MBNA Interest Rate Trick (to take a purely random example) would be successful or not but it might be a useful addition to a defence. Bear in mind that the test under the new provisions is very wide indeed and, once an application is made, the burden of proof shifts to the creditor to show that the relationship has been fair.

 

The OFT guidance (OFT 854) can be found on their web site under publications and is worth a read.

[Viscount Stair]

PS The Unfair Contract Terms Regs are potentially relevant too.

[fleeced_by_rbos]

Hi Landy

 

Here is Alphageek's letter....http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/other-institutions-successes/89640-alphageek-mbna-4.html#post973725

 

I tweaked it for my own circumstances together with some additional wording that they themselves use in their letters such as "DO NOT IGNORE THIS LETTER" and informing them that should they tell me they are not subject to UK law (which they have done to some people) then I would report them, etc, etc.

 

Have you got a thread for your battle yet? Send me the link so that I can sub.

 

Good luck getting the monkey of your back!

 

FBR x

[landy_alert]

Hi Landy

 

Here is Alphageek's letter....http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/other-institutions-successes/89640-alphageek-mbna-4.html#post973725

 

I tweaked it for my own circumstances together with some additional wording that they themselves use in their letters such as "DO NOT IGNORE THIS LETTER" and informing them that should they tell me they are not subject to UK law (which they have done to some people) then I would report them, etc, etc.

 

Have you got a thread for your battle yet? Send me the link so that I can sub.

 

Good luck getting the monkey of your back!

 

FBR x

 

Hi FBR,

 

Many thanks for the link!

 

I'm afraid I don't know how to give a link to my thread(s), but have two on the go here in the MBNA forum. There are entitled - 'What next please?' and 'Default Notice'.

 

Will have a tweak of that letter and get it sent off - I need to do something quite urgently as OH had a letter from the DCA this morning threatening 'pre-litigation assessment' if he does nothing within the next 10 days, although I'm sure it's just another scare tactic:eek:

 

Thanks again for your help.

 

All the best,

 

Landy x

[fleeced_by_rbos]

Hi Landy

 

You're welcome.

 

Just copy the address from your browser window into the message you want to insert the link into. The forum will automatically turn it into a link.

 

Also, see the "permalink" link in the top right corner of all posts? Well click that and you'll get a slightly extended address in your browser which points to a specific post.

 

If you can do that it would make it easier to find the threads and you'll hopefully get more advice.

 

All the best

FBR x

[landy_alert]

Hi FBR,

 

Thanks for that - hopefully this will work - here are links to my 2 MBNA threads..........if you could take a look that would be great!

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/189475-what-next-please.html

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/190003-default-notice.html

 

Regards,

 

Landy x

[fleeced_by_rbos]

Hi Landy, will take a look in a sec.

 

As for me, I sent my nasty letter to them telling them they were in default of my CCA request, not to threaten me with their usual nonsense etc etc. Now I've decided to send them another letter using the same approach they use - a nasty letter and a nicer we can help you letter.

 

While I don't want to roll over and be slapped around by this dirty company, I also don't want my credit record pummeled by them, so I have decided on a slight compromise.....

 

I will agree to start repaying them again but only the balance before it span out of control due to their excessive greed. If they can confirm to me in writing that they will accept that and agree to a list of conditions which prevent them from abusing me, passing the debt on, chasing me for the rest of the money, etc, then I will start paying them again but only at the original interest rate.

 

I will see if that works, gonna send the letter on Monday by recorded post. Their alternative is legal action and me fighting them all the way, reporting their actions, and me making it a hobby to do everything I can to destroy those thieving scummy b*******!

[fleeced_by_rbos]

Hi FBR,

 

Thanks for that - hopefully this will work - here are links to my 2 MBNA threads..........if you could take a look that would be great!

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/189475-what-next-please.html

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/190003-default-notice.html

 

Regards,

 

Landy x

 

Hi Landy, looks like you are getting a bit of help on your thread and there isn't anything I can do more then those guys are already. You could also take a good look at the looooong thread that is http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/184041-all-mbna-caggers-fight-new-post.html and post links to your thread in there asking for people to take a look. It is a rather busy thread if you haven't seen it, and is for people suffering at the hands of MBNA, A.K.A the world's largest and most obnoxious financial thug group....**allegedly** ;-)

[fleeced_by_rbos]

Ah I see you are already there Landy!

[landy_alert]

Hi Landy, looks like you are getting a bit of help on your thread and there isn't anything I can do more then those guys are already. You could also take a good look at the looooong thread that ishttp://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/184041-all-mbna-caggers-fight-new-post.html and post links to your thread in there asking for people to take a look. It is a rather busy thread if you haven't seen it, and is for people suffering at the hands of MBNA, A.K.A the world's largest and most obnoxious financial thug group....**allegedly** ;-)

 

Hi FBR,

 

Many thanks for having a read of my threads - it's most appreciated:)

 

Are you definitely intending to start paying them again if they agree to your conditions btw?

 

Landy x