Rossendales.Can someone help me please?

[Fair-Parking]

Sugarbabe. I've read your heartfelt post and I must still say that going bankrupt is NOT the answer. Unlike the well meaning advisors at CAB, I have been in a situation where my debts were far more than I could ever understand and unlike the CAB, I know what happens when you don't go bankrupt in these circumstances.

 

Normal rules do not apply in this situation and what does apply in the getting out of this maze will be beyond the comprehension of anybody who hasn't lived through it.

 

First - ask yourself two questions - the most important of all - and the ones that just overwhelm all others........

 

"If I don't go bankrupt, how will my creditors receive the money they claim I owe?"

Answer - They won't. You don't have any money. That's it, no loose ends and no more to add.

 

Next question - 'What will they do if they aren't paid?"

Answer - They cannot have you committed to prison. The worst they can do is make you bankrupt - after they have thrown away good money after bad. They may well gain court judgments against you, but that isn't going to help them. No court judgment on earth is going to change the fact that you don't have any money.

 

Its their way forward that's becoming a problem - and a problem that is theirs to resolve and one that they will not be able to.

 

Also your recent posts revealed two items that are very relevant and which point to your salvation. First you say that the debt of the car is over 5 years old. Do you realise that if the company demanding the £8000 do NOT issue proceedings before the 6th anniversary of the debt, that they will unable to serve any on you and thus you can just walk away from this?

 

This part of civil debt law is applicable to most of those you owe money to. In others words Sugarbabe, if they don't do something about it, the debt will topple over the edge just like those penny coins in the fairground machine. Thus debts become null and void in time.

 

Finally you can see by the last letter that you received, that companies, creditors,advisors and ombudsmen just go through set procedures and motions. As do local authorities and bailiffs. Reality doesn't come in to it. So whilst you are on a downer in that you feel let down by this, why not turn it around? If they are that inept and thoughtless, why should your creditors behave any differently in trying to obtain payment - and from somebody who doesn't have it?

 

As I say the worst they can do is make you bankrupt, so why, why, why make it easier for them and pay the privilege of doing so?

[Sugarbabe47]

Hi FF

 

Firstly thank you for the reply. I would like to say though CAB have told me that debt companies *buy* bad debts and so the cycle continues and will continue. Without actually trying to locate ALL the paperwork , I have it all somewhere!, it could well be over 6 years since the original debts were took out, in fact IT IS....but I do not have the fight in me to trawl through all this as well... the L/A , LGO, Bailiffs are taking all my waking time worrying etc. I work long hours and have to try and sort this out as I can, sometimes at work!

I have been granted the FULL fees for my bankrupcy so why should I not go ahead?? I really, really cannot see any other way-for my sanity, peace of mind and life back!

If I am missing something here please pm me and help me if you can - my head is so full of mush and conflicting advice it sometimes does get overwhelming. I go to court on 12th November.....so a few weeks yet...

Edited October 10, 2008 by Sugarbabe47
wrong wording

[berrylover]

I can understand how Sugarbabe feels. Before I started sorting my mess out I felt as if the mental strain of it all was the worst part. I could cope with whatever paperwork, defaults, CCJ's etc they threw at me, but the knowledge that I was banging my head on a brick wall was killing me (literally~my mental health was on the verge of suicide). Luckily I still had a little strength left to fight back.

 

However if Sugarbabe feels like the best option is for her to make the choice to go bankrupt and she can live with the implications of that easier than having to fight over and over again with companies then I think that is the way she should go.

[Fair-Parking]

Sugarbabe. I remember that mushy feeling only too well. In the end I simply walked away - quite literally. Played cricket and took my small son to steam railways. Didn't bother to answer letters any more and just left the answerphone on - and didn't reply. In other words I pushed them all out of my mind. It was the best therapy ever. Suddenly it went quiet out there. Once they realised that they had to run whilst I did nothing, the heart went out of most.

 

You ask - are you missing something? Yes - you haven't answered those crucial questions. Did you ask yourself? What was your response (to yourself)? You don't have to tell us. That's just adding to your perceived responsibilities.

 

Recycled debts? From earlier this year it became illegal for anybody purchasing a debt to contact the original debtor if the time scale has exceeded 6 years. Your debts will become smaller everyday, and the beauty is - you don't have to do anything.

 

Why consider 12 November to be D-Day? Why rush when you can take your time? It's not compulsory to bankrupt yourself. You can always re-instate another date later - or wait for a creditor to do it for you. If they bother....

[chris600uk]

:oops:I know I said I wouldn't say anymore, and I hate doing this but..................

 

It seems to me that the problem is not the scale of the debts you have, but how you view them, and that's because you are clearly a caring honest and principled person.

 

That is to your credit. But it isn't to your advantage in this situation, because the people you are dealing with are unprincipled sharks, and probably not that honest either; they don't see you as an honest person who wants to pay them but needs time to do it, they just see you as someone they can scare into working ridiculous hours just so they can line their pockets as quickly as possible.

 

When I posted earlier about making creditors accept £1 a week I wasn't kidding - I've done that, I've even made some accept £1 a month, and later when funds allowed, cleared the debts.

Only one firm couldn't wait - I owed them just over £2k; they got all huffy and took me to court, and were awarded £5 a month - it will take them nearly 39 years to get the rest of their money, when the other creditors from that time have now been paid.

:twisted:I don't care, the CCJ no longer appears on my credit file, so I see it as their punishment for being unreasonable, and I won't have to pay it all back anyway.

 

You can do this too8).

[Sugarbabe47]

hi all.

Righty then I have some questions that I would like answers/advise on please.

Forgive me for going over things, but my head is still mush with all the responses (I keep reading and reading over and over again)

From what I have understood and if I have got this wrong please tell me, I should wait to go bankrupt or even put it on hold? And the other debts, if I just *ignore them* will just disappear - I can't see how that can happen.

 

And I should wait for a response from the council?

 

I don't know what to do first, I am so confused now.

I am waiting for TT to whizz by.

 

Do I need to get all my paperwork together(debts -which I am doing for the b/r) and get hold of my credit file? and see what is listed on it - then maybe make a decision re b/r?? I haven't seen my credit file for a few years.

 

Maybe I should be complaining about the bailiff illegal charges and their illegal levy, but I don't have that in writing - I have gone ahead with the advice and help from TT with the bailiffs (And I cannot thank her enough)

TT has assisted me at a time when I thought there was absolutley no-one that could help me.

I believed that by putting all the ex's debts, including the car loan, into bankrupcy that this would give me a fresh start, now I am doubting this decision, after reading all the posts here.

 

As you can see from the time of my post I am not sleeping too well either with all the worry,stress,confusion:(.

 

Sugar x

[chris600uk]

There's nothing wrong with going over things, and having a "mushy" head is perfectly understandable given the range of things you've had to put up with over the last few years.

[Fair-Parking]

Sugarbabe. First - there is no simple answer to all this, just a long slog whichever way your choose to go. My answer was to stop gathering up all the paperwork and trying to deal with it, for as you know - you can't.

 

Leave it. Walk away from it. Close your mind to it. If its that important to others you'll get reminders from those who want you to continue to live in the terror that you are clearly living in now. Don't write to bailiffs and others, because thats what they feed off. They'll just wait for one mistake and pounce with something along the lines of 'You promised.... and you failed to keep your promise..... you are untrustworthy'. Just keep your head down and stay silent. That's the one thing they find hardest to deal with.

 

Take it from me that Chris is right. They don't care about you. They don't care about your family, your future, your willingness to try and pay now. In fact they don't care about anybody but themselves - not even the rights and priorities of other creditors.

 

I can't say that all the debts will go away. I can only say that once people realise that you cannot pay and will not dance to their tune, they will have to deal with that situation. The answer to many is to just give up.

 

There really is no other answer if the money isn't there.

 

The clouds will slowly disperse and you will see the sun again.

[chris600uk]

Do I need to get all my paperwork together(debts -which I am doing for the b/r) and get hold of my credit file? and see what is listed on it - then maybe make a decision re b/r?? I haven't seen my credit file for a few years.

 

 

As F-P says, NO YOU DONT.

 

The way I do it goes something like this, very simplified.

 

You complete a means form showing what you can actually afford to pay the Council Tax, and £1 per month to everyone else who is actively chasing you for money; that's because the CT is a priority debt.

 

You base the income upon a reasonable weeks work - not 50 hours, or extra jobs, just one job doing normal hours with no overtime, so you can have proper rest, and a proper break at the weekend, and maybe god forbid, a little fun!!!!!.

 

You use the nationally accepted figures for your expenditure, which are available from the CAB.

 

You don't get into any discussion with anyone about how it's made up - that's because it's nobodies business but yours - understand?

 

You send this form with your REASONABLE and SUSTAINABLE offer of payment to the Council Tax and the people who are actively chasing you.

 

If anyone threatens you with court you rejoice! Because they'll only get what is ordered by the court (based on what you wrote on your means form) for as long as it takes. I've got one that'll take 39 years.

And after 6 years it'll quietly drop off your credit file so long as you keep making those tiny payments.

 

You see?

 

It's not what you owe that matters, it's how you look at what you owe that matters.

[tomtubby]

Sugarbabe.

 

I am sorry, but I have posted two long responses, the last one at 9 this morning but the posts has been removed.......

[chris600uk]

Sugarbabe.

 

I am sorry, but I have posted two long responses, the last one at 9 this morning but the posts has been removed.......

 

Why TT?

[tomtubby]

I can only assume that the moderator has removed them.

 

I give up !!!!

[chris600uk]

But why, what was in them that a mod could possibly object to?

[Sugarbabe47]

Oh dear TT..Is it my fault? Have I said something on here that I shouldn't??

Please don't give up on me TT

SUGAR X

[Sugarbabe47]

May I ask a moderator why TT has not been able to post replies to me?

Have I done/said something on here that I shouldn't?

 

Getting a little paranoid about what I can ask here now:confused:

[chris600uk]

Don't be, there is nothing wrong with anything you have posted, so whatever it is it'll be between TT and the Site owners/or Mods.

They have rules that are there to protect them from libel, and other legal potholes, etc etc and TT may have unintentionally crossed the line in her posts to you.

 

They'll kiss and make up soon enough, I'm sure.

[Sugarbabe47]

Hi

Could someone please let TT know I am desperate for assistance???

 

Thank you.

Sugar

[chris600uk]

illegal charges and illegal levies have been made against me.

 

What were they, and why were they illegal.

 

Because if you are correct then you are entitled to make a Form 4 complaint.

 

Overcharging bailiff fees is fraud, and could easily be grounds for revoking the bailiffs licence.

 

You must deal with each item calmly, focus first on the bailiff's fees because that's their achilles heel - they always do this stuff in the hope you won't tell anyone.

[Sugarbabe47]

thank you Chris

I have the bailiffs expected on Monday AGAIN. I hear what you are saying but I was receiving help from TT - I am at a loss where to go now.. sigh...back to being held hostage again then.....should I write to bailiffs AGAIN??..my case is in the hands of the L/A, with LGO....its in dispute so this alone should stop any action, but it is L/A that say the hold is only till 20th October...I am banging my head against a brick wall now...TT sorted bailiffs last time and TT told me they were illegal charges and an illegal levy, I don't have this in writing...I have done everything that has been asked of me, any advice would be appreciated, only got a day or so b4 the bailiffs come a knocking.

 

Thanks sugar x

[awhhartley]

HI there,

I know this is maybe of no help have you got a local LA Councillor who is any good if you lived where I do then I could help alsa I do not.

[Sugarbabe47]

bumping for assistance

[chris600uk]

it is L/A that say the hold is only till 20th October...

 

Reading your post again, it looks to me like you've never made a form 4 complaint about the bailiff to the County court, or a regulation 46 complaint about the council to the magistrates court, but you have made a complaint to the LGO which won't get sorted till next year - that sound about right?

In the meantime R's are hassling you, they've had the account once, bounced it back to the council and the council have handed it right back to them.

 

I would start the process of complaining all over again - a bit like a cracked record and drag them through the County Court, and the Magistrates Court; starting with emails backed up by posted hard copy, warning that the account is in dispute and you'll make the complaints I mentioned if there is any further action.

 

TT will have a comment on this I'm sure, but in case she's tied up I'll keep right on and post a template letter that might be useful.

[chris600uk]

15th October 2008

 

Re: xxxxxxx Client reference xxxxxxxx 


Please understand that I am fully aware of my rights and you will not

gain peaceful entry to my home under any circumstances to levy goods.

I know the fees allowed under statute and when these fees can be applied.

 

Dear Sir/madam,

 

This account is in dispute and has been since my complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman.

However I understand that the hold on action on my account is due to expire on Monday 20th October.

 

As you already know from previous correspondence, your bailiff has charged fees for work not undertaken by you, which you know is an offence under Section 2(1)(b)(i) and Section 4(1)©(i) of the Fraud Act 2006, and grounds for a complaint to the County Court under the Distress for Rent Rules 1988 or Form 4 complaint.

 

My experience of paying you shows that you take your fees and then pass what is left to the council to pay off the debt. I have already been paying them as much as I can.

If I now pay money to you, including the fees that you claim to be entitled to, there will be a shortfall when the money is passed to the council and my ability to repay the council tax arrears will be unfairly reduced.

 

This account is in dispute because your charges and levies are illegal; I expect NO FURTHER ACTION to be taken until this situation is resolved and I expect you to confirm that all action on this account is on hold, and that on the expiry of the current hold on action it will be renewed.

 

If I do not receive the confirmation that I have asked for by return of post or by electronic mail at xxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.com I will make a complaint to XXXXXXXXX City Council and a regulation 46 complaint to the Magistrates Court which issued the liability order on Monday 20th October.

 

I have not refused to pay the Council Tax arrears.

I have not refused to pay reasonable fees that you are legally entitled to.

I am sending a copy of this letter to XXXXXXXXX City Council

 

To reduce costs to you and to make it easier to respond to my request, I will accept contact by electronic mail at the email address shown above.

You will receive a hard copy of this message by recorded delivery.

 

Yours faithfully,

[chris600uk]

What I do is this, I send a warning email letter to the bailiffs, council tax office and the email address of the head of the revenues department, then I back it up with a hard copy to the bailiffs and the council tax office.

 

That makes sure everyone knows about it.

Then if they don't respond, I will do what I've threatened.

 

It worked for me, there's no reason why it can't work for you.

[tomtubby]

Well done Chris.

 

In this particular case, Rossendales did agree (finally) to refund the charges that had been made to your account and also returned your account back to the council. They have also confirmed to me that they do not have a Walking Possession and know that there is no way posible for them to gain entry into your home. It was this reason that they returned the debt back as Nulla Bono.

 

Following this a letter was put togther that has now been sent to the LGO and to which you have had a response which you are unhappy about. I can understand that I as I also felt the same way. However, I then read the response again in the morning ( that was the day that I posted two responses) and I looked at this response in a different way. Crucially, the letter from the LGO has been sent to the CHIEF EXECUTIVE of the ENTIRE COUNCIL. THis is not a clerk in the council tax benefit dept, this is somebody very SENIOR INDEED. For this reason I would wait to hear what transpires.

 

I am fully aware that you have a date for a Bankruptcy hearing but frankly this can be changed and in any event is a month away.

 

I can assure you the Rossendales DO NOT want to deal with this account again and the actions of this particular council in referring it back to Rossendales is simply staggering.

 

I will post again tomorrow.....try not to worry.