Thames Credit

[afta05]

I have sent this firm a CCA letter and they have replied stating that they are not the original creditor and they did not provide me with the original credit facility. They purchased the debt and the right to collect that balance with the right to apply interest. They say they have no obligation to provide me with a copy of the agreement but they would seek to obtain one as a matter of good practice. However, unless I am specifically denying that I have knowledge of the debt they will continue to chase me for it.

 

I think that they are obliged to respond to me CCA letter under s. 178 of the 1974 Act. Can anyone advise what I should do next. The 12+2 days runs out in just over a week.

[seq]

Hi ,

I am in the same situation, received the EXACT same letter today. 12+2 days runs out 17/7. Looking forward for any advise!

[dpick]

Hi I had similar response and wrote back to advise them CAB, OFT and CCA say they are obliged to supply agreement etc nor are they allowed to apply interest unless it's in the agreement you signed.

 

Letter was basically a supply agreement or bog off.

 

Never heard from them again

 

dpick:)

[afta05]

Thanks dpick. I think I will do nothing until the 12 days are up and then write to them that the debt is unenforceable and take it from there. I have been following the advice of others and have 4 DCAs now chasing original agreements and they all come up with threats that I don't think they can pursue. From what I hear though Thames Credit are a persistent lot and may well keep up the threats. One thing I did a long time ago was to refuse to accept anonimous phone calls so you always know the number someone is calling from, and for a small fee, I have the BT choose to refuse service. As soon as we get a phone call from a DCA we refuse to accept any more calls from that number and they can't ring you with their threats.

[foolishgirl]

Hate to be a pessimist but TC to date have been the only DCA to come up with a an enforceable CCA for me. So sometimes it does happen! Just be prepared...

[lookinforinfo]

Oh dear Thames Credit you could not be more wrong. And since May of this year the Law is now unequivocal on the situation.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/147392-cca-dcas-unfair-commercial.html

 

Just read Post One of Baby Bears thread and you will see that there has been new legislation that confirms the position of companies such as Thames Credit. They do have to comply with your request, and as they haven't done so, they are not permitted by Law to add interest to the amount until they comply with your request.

In addition they will have committed a summary offence after a further month should they fail to comply with your CCA. Whether you admit to having had the loan is irrelevant. Until they comply with the Act they cannot enforce the debt in any way.

A visit to Trading Standards complaining about Thames behaviour and querying their fitness to hold a Consumer Credit Licence since their response to you was so illinformed and misleading that

you have to wonder what their Data Controller has been doing to educate the staff. Not much by the look of it.

Edited July 8, 2008 by lookinforinfo

[afta05]

Thanks everyone this is really helpful. I do not intend to reply to the DCAs who cannot provide the CCA copy agreement. I have 4 of them Thames Credit, Roxburghe, Lowell and Moorcroft. All the original agreements would have been in the 1990s but I have been paying off small amounts regularly over the years. Since joining the group though I have adopted a more assertive stance and if they cannot provide the legal documents to permit them to enforce the alleged debts I will not pay. To be honest I have no idea what I owe and to whom!

[foolishgirl]

Well said afta!

 

After all they'd hardly pay you anything if you just sent them a letter saying 'pay me' would they?! Make them prove the debt.

[afta05]

I have had another letter from Thames saying that they are concerned that I have cancelled the direct debit. They go on to say that "if we do not hear from you as a matter of urgency, your account will be returned to our collections division. Any accrued interest will be applied to your account on the full balance". I still have not received the copy agreement that I have asked for.

 

Also had a letter from Moorcroft. They say "we are continuing to seek to obtain a copy of the consumer credit agreement that you have requested. In the meantime however we believe that it may be of assistance to all parties if we also take this opportunity to ensure that any potential areas of dispute are addressed prior to any court action or further investigation. Please could you give an indication of the information you will be providing when giving evidence to the court or providing information to the relevant statutory authorities in relation to the alleged subject matter of the account". They ask for the information by return.

 

Advice would be very welcome but I think the answer is to ignore both letters and wait for the time allowed by law for the copies to be produced?

[foolishgirl]

Thames' comments are predictable; Moorcrofts' are downright breathtaking in their impudence!

 

In your position I would wait for the 12 days +2 deadline & then send the '12 day letter' template - amend to suit:

 

 

Dear Sir or Madam

 

Request for true copy of Credit Agreement under Sections 77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I wrote to you recently requesting a true, signed copy of any credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. This is my right under Sections 77 and 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 on payment of the statutory fee of £1.00. This payment was included with my original request.

 

Under the terms of the above Act, a creditor has 12 working days to provide the requested document. This deadline has now passed & I have not received the requested documents from you. I therefore notify you that you have a further 30 days before this matter becomes a criminal offence.

As I am sure you are aware, an agreement that does not contain all of the prescribed terms, and/or is not signed by the debtor, is completely unenforceable & I therefore consider that this account is in dispute with immediate effect.

Furthermore please consider this letter a statutory notice under Section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect. This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with the credit reference agencies. Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data. Should you fail to respond within 21 days, I will assume that you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore, you should remember that a creditor is not permitted to take any action against an account whilst it remains in dispute. The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and therefore the following applies:

 

• You may not demand any payment on this account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
  
• You may not add any further interest or charges to this account.
  
• You may not pass this account to any third party.
  
• You may not register any information in respect of this account with any of the credit reference agencies.
  
• You may not issue a default notice related to this account.
  

If **DCA** chooses to ignore my dispute and attempt enforcement, I will file reports with the appropriate authorities, including, but not limited to, Trading Standards, Office of Fair Trading, Information Commissioners Office & Financial Ombudsman Service.

 

I also require a copy of your internal complaints procedure as further action may be necessary.

 

YS

 

 

 

[afta05]

Thanks foolishgirl - that's very helpful and reassuring. Perhaps you could tell me what the position would be if the DCA turn up with a copy of the credit agreement after the 12+2 days or indeed after the following month?

[foolishgirl]

Depends on the contents of the CCA eg. does it have all the prescribed terms & is therefore enforceable.

 

See what comes first (if anything!). You can always post a copy of it in the forum for advice - just remember to obliterate personal details, acc. nos. etc. before uploading, you never know who's looking.

 

When did you take out the agreements? Generally, it seems as though stuff before about 2004 can be suspect or missing, after that the OCs seem to have taken more care to get it right although it's not a hard & fast rule.

[afta05]

All my agreements were before 2000 as I have been paying off since about then. I paid at first through a debt management company but they went bust in 2006 and money that I was paying them wasn't being passed on to the creditors. I started paying them direct myself in 2006 but when I came across the forum I realised how I had been bullied into paying by the DCAs. There is Lowell who have failed to come up with the agreement within the time and the other 3 who have another week. In addition, I have 2 CCJs that I have another couple of years to pay off and 2 other agreements that I defaulted on but which I am paying small amounts to Mastercard and Barclaycard direct. Bit of a mess really!

Edited July 12, 2008 by afta05

[foolishgirl]

Oh poor you, it's bad enough being in debt but to have a DMA go bust on you too, just a nightmare!

 

Are the CCJs with any of the companies you've applied for CCAs from now?

 

You should still continue to pay those with the CCJs as they have a court order to collect on the debt regardless of the CCA position.

 

Are the CCJs recent by any chance?

 

Have you applied to Barclaycard & the Mastercard company for CCAs? Also is it possible that charges have been applied to these accounts (or the ones with Thames, Moorcroft & co.) in the past for late payment/overlimit etc. & have you ever claimed for them? If not that could reduce your debt to them.

[afta05]

Thanks for your help Foolishgirl. The CCJs were not from any of the companies I have applied CCAs from. These judgements were made several years ago and I have been paying them off regularly - I know that if I default on them the court can take further action. I will have paid them off in a couple of years.

 

I have not applied to BC or MC for CCAs. I don't think they are applying interest or charges but I am not sure. None of the DCAs has applied any interest or charges. I'm sure they just bought the debts and have been collecting on them.

[foolishgirl]

So, not a lot you can do about the CCJs.

 

However re. the others, it is possible that charges have been applied before the DCAs took over the accounts & you are entitled to that money back, even if all it does is reduce your debt burden i.e. not necessarily a cheque in your pocket, it is used to offset the amounts owed.

 

The first thing you need to do is to find out the amounts that may be due & you can do this by submitting a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request). There is a fee of £10.00 to pay to each creditor/DCA, send them Rec. Del. & don't sign the letter - use dig. sig. or print. This is the link for the template

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/516-1-data-protection-act.html

 

Claims are usually made on bank accounts (although they are currenly stayed but you can still start your claim) & credit card accounts. There is a lot of info. on CAG re. reclaiming charges - suggest you read it before submitting your claim.

 

You are going to be busy but it's worth it!

[foolishgirl]

You should also apply for CCA to BC & MC. It's possible that the CCAs may not be enforceable & you could reassess your repayment situation.

[afta05]

Thank you - this is so helpful. I have just written 4 SAR request letters to the DCAs which will go off tomorrow. I will then send CCA requests to BC and MC. I'll post the responses on the forum.

[foolishgirl]

YW.

 

Don't forget they have 12+2 days to fulfil request for CCAs & 40 days for SARs so don't expect immediate results. If they don't comply within those time spans, post back for further advice from CAG.

[Dipply75]

Hi Aftao5

 

I just wanted sub and to chime in about Thames in particular and the interest being applied etc. I have seen them do this many times....apparently buying the debt then not contacting the person for ages, while applying interest all along.

 

My favourite (will never forget it) was for an apparent credit card debt that they bought 9 years before contacting the person, by which point they had added (get this) £7K worth of interest on - making a £1K debt over £8000 pounds!!!!

 

They never could come up with the agreement or anything. They are sneaky gets and the big interest they levy is where they make their money from unsuspecting folks.

 

A statement of account would be interesting reading. Good luck with them

[afta05]

Useful to know that Dipply75 - thanks for warning me. I will be sending the SAR request tomorrow. They have not come up with the agreement yet though.

[afta05]

I have received the first reply to one of my SAR requests. R replied in 2 days telling me what the amount was when the account was assigned to them, how much I have paid, what the balance is and confirmation that they haven't added any interest charges to the amount assigned. However, they have not replied at all to the CCA letter I sent 12 + 2 days ago. Does this mean that the debt is unenforceable now? I have stopped payments. Should I write or just sit it out?

[afta05]

Had an acknowledgement to the SAR from Lowell who say they will respond within 40 days or let me know if they need longer.

 

Have decided to send letters to the 3 others who have failed to respond to CCA letters within the 12+2 day period.

[Dipply75]

Hi Afta, I think you are right, just hold off and sit tight. Until they supply those CCA's, you do not have to pay them.

 

As for the others, defo send the letters telling that they are now in breach - keeps you right and means you have done all you can from your side, so you look so reasonable in an official complaint.

 

Interested to see what Thames supply

 

BTW Did you do the full SAR (£10) or the CCA one (£1) ?

[lookinforinfo]

The debt does not become unenforceable until a further month has passed.

As they can now no longer pursue you for the debt, nor charge interest on it,

there seems little point in chasing them up.

In addition the longer they don't comply with your CCA request the less chance they have of squirming out of it should you make a complaint later and the greater the fine when the powers that be are informed. Either that, or you can negotiate with them over the debt-perhaps to write it off to avoid

them paying a fine and having them remove any default into the bargain. There are several permutations if you can leave them sweat.