Disciplinary hearing tuesday 22nd - help please

[lovelybubbly]

Hello

 

My husband is a security supervisor for a University with three patrolmen working under him, he has been in this job for nearly 11 years with different security contractors who tender for the contract. He has been awarded for his commitment to work, and is well respected by the staff of the University. An incident occured before Christmas where a student was very baldy beaten at the halls of residence by a chap off camp that someone in the same court had let in to the building. They had had a set to earlier in the night at a local pub and the chap followed him home and pressed different apartment numbers until someone let him. Security was telephoned and told that the chap had a knife and to get security to come. Procedures that are in place with my husbands firm give no guidelines on how to deal with violent disturbances but tell them to get the complianant to call the police as a third party cannot give all the relevant details needed to assist the police. My husband was not told where the incident was or how many were involved. When a similair incident happened many years ago my husband deployed guards and found a woman holding a knife to another students neck, my husband was verbally reprimanded by the police for allowing officers to attend when not properly trained or protected. Since then no further guidelines were issued and he has not sent officers to violent disorders. There are no guidelines or procedures to tell my husband how to deal with an incident like this, even when an officer from the same firm was stabbed to death whilst on duty and his colleague badly beaten. The student suffered a broken jaw and it was found that no knife was involved. My husband is now facing a second hearing on tuesday following the first one before christmas being suspended for further investigations. Now that the Director has completed his investigation he wants to resume the hearing and I am very concerned. Given the fact that no procedures were in force to tell my husband the right way to deal the an incident like this,( an updated memo went out two days after the incident giving instructions on what to do, this would have been helpful to him before the fact really), that he did not want to put his officers wellbeing in danger and that they have received no training or protective clothing to deal with a problem like this, I feel that they are using my husband as a scapegoat because the students mother has complained. They are highly unlikley to admit to the students mother that they did not have any procedures in place to allow the supervisor on duty to deal with this, I think they would rather find my husband at fault to placate the victims mother. My husband has recently registered with Unison but has not accrued the 13 weeks of subs to be represented. My feeling is that how can they hold my husband accountable and in the wrong when the company he works for did not give him any guidelines on how to deal with this incident in the right way.Any advice on how my husband should deal with the hearing on tuesday would be lovely, as with no representation he will be on his own

Many thanks

Rachel

apologies for any spellling mis

[Ell-enn]

Hi there, I'm sorry to hear your husband is facing this situation at work. He should have been advised in writing, prior to the hearing, that he has the right to be accompanied at this hearing. He should definitely ask a colleague to accompany him, preferably one of the security team who is familiar with the incident. If he is worried about how the hearing should be conducted you might find the following link on the Acas website useful. Acas - The disciplinary meeting

 

However, it would be wrong of the employer to discipline an employee for not doing something when he has had no instructions to do it. If there was no procedure in place for the situation you describe then he cannot be disciplined for not following it.

 

If the outcome of the hearing is disciplinary action against your husband, he has the right to appeal. In that event, you should post here and we will help you with that.

 

I understand that it must be a very worrying and uncertain time for you both, especially since you husband has been a loyal and well respected employee who has never faced this situation before. However, you might find that it is an investigatory hearing with the purpose of setting down the correct procedures going forward.

 

If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

 

Kind Regards

 

Ell-enn

[paulgmb]

If he has a copy of the notice issued 2 days after the incident, this would be extremely useful especially if it is dated.

 

He should of had by now copies of all evidence that management have gathered including any witness statements. He should arrange for any witnesses to attend to support him or if his letter of suspension forbids this then put the request in writing to the HR dept.

 

Lastly I would suggest that he requests in writing a copy of the policy or procedure in place at the time of the incident. Could be interesting if they produce the one they recently issued, unless this was already in place and the recent policy has only been re-issued as a reminder.

 

Best of luck,

 

Paul.

[lovelybubbly]

Thank you for the replies, thankfully my husband has not been suspended during this, I have a feeling that they may have let him work on, being that the Christmas period is difficult to cover, but that might be my bad mind working overtime. Luckily the memo giving details of procedures is dated (after the incident) and that it states clearly that the following procedures are to be adopted with immediate effect, which plainly shows that they were not in force on the night of the incident. My husband has recieved no paperwork from the Director about evidence or witness statements, is this something he should have had?

[Ell-enn]

It is not necessary (or even usual) for the employer to formally advise the employee regarding witness statements or evidence, but you have the right to take to the hearing anything which will strengthen your position. It is unfortunate that your husband did not join the union in time for them to help and advise him, but you will get all the help you need on this forum and Paulgmb has given you excellent advice exactly as your union rep would have done.

 

Kind Regards

 

Ell-enn

[Sidewinder]

Although not specifically mentioned above, I believe that your husband has grounds to question whether the employer has discharged their responsibility for his safety under the Health & Safety at Work Act 1974. What risk assessments were in place at the time identifying the possibility of injury? By the nature of the job it is not possible to fully eliminate risk, so surely he should have access to protective equipment. Subsequent to the previous incident with a knife, would the risk assessment not have recommended access to stab vests? At the very least, there should be sufficient training in place to maintain skills in defusing confrontation and guidelines for specific situations such as this?

 

Quoted from a Security Industry website:-

 

 

Under the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999, employers must ensure that all security staff are:

• advised in easily understood terms about the risks they face
  
  
• suitably qualified to carry out the role
  
  
• properly supervised
  
  
• trained to a standard that is "commensurate with the level of risk being faced"
  
  
• guided against practice known to be unsafe
  
  
• informed of the procedures for "serious and imminent danger", and for entering so-called 'danger areas'
  
  
• monitored for signs/symptoms that they may be suffering harm (eg stress).

I would also suggest that for the purposes of any disciplinary hearing or action on this occasion, any previous warning should have been expunged if a period of 'many years' has elapsed, and should not be used to add weight to this incident. It sounds as though the University may be anticipating a letter from Claims Direct for a PI claim on the part of the student and are keen to offload responsibility onto your husband's company.

 

Has he spoken to ACAS (08457 474747)? Absolutely free and they should be able to give some guidance ahead of the meeting.

[Ell-enn]

Good point Sidewinder

[paulgmb]

At an investigation meeting the employer does not have to provide any information in advance or even let the employee know why (if applicable) they have been suspended as suspension is a 'neutral act.'

 

However, if after such an investigation meeting it is decided by the investigating officer that there is a case to answer, then sufficent notice, normally 5 working days must be given in writing to the employee outlining what they are accused of and providing any information that management will be relying on including witness statements (if any) to allow you to prepare your defence and call any witnesses you deem necessary.

 

Lastly, the disciplinary should be chaired by a different and more senior person than the person who carried out the investigation.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Regards,

 

Paul.

[lovelybubbly]

Hello

 

Well today was d day, the hearing was set for 12 noon, and that time came and went! My husband received a call from the director who was holding the hearing telling him that he would be late. The chap eventually turned up at just after 4pm, my husband finishes his shift at 5.30pm. The director came to see my husband just before he finished his shift telling him that the hearing wouldn't be hapening today and that it might be tomorrow now! Surely this is not right at all. My husband has been given no time or even a firm date for the "possible" "maybe" hearing tomorrow and has been on edge for the past 4 days since the letter arrived, this seems very unprofessional (spell) and highly dubious. I thought that to reschedule a hearing of this sort you had to give more notice than less than 12 hours, I had heard that it was 5 working days, any help or info on this would be great

[Sidewinder]

The guideline for non-attendance on either side is no more than five days after the original date, although the rescheduled time and date should have been offered to your husband as an alternative with the freedom for him to negotiate a different date if inconvenient or if say a witness or colleague/observer due at the original date cannot make the rearranged meeting. I presume he has been given the right to be accompanied? The fact that your husband was let down at short notice could support his case if any sanction is taken against him, as it demonstrates that the employer might not have treated the matter with the importance which it deserves, and has added to the anxiety being endured by your husband.

 

I can fully understand the additional stress which this is placing on both of you and hope that at least there will be a satisfactory resolution tomorrow.

[lovelybubbly]

Hello

My husband has just rang after coming out of the hearing, he has been demoted from supervisor to patrolman, which will incur a change of hourly rate and has the possibility of being moved shifts which will cause disruption (spell) to our home life. He has told the director that he wishes to appeal and is bieng sent the appropriate paperwork in the post, this is so wrong, he was demoted due to the fact that he did not call the police to report the student being assaulted. There is nothing in the guidelines for either the secirty company that he works for or the Uni guidelines that states this is the way it should be handled. His company has certainly passed the blame from thier mismanagement of the incident to him to apease the students mother. Is there a time limit on appealing, and is there any further info I can pass on to him to aid in his appeal, thank you for all your ongoing help

[Sidewinder]

I agree that this sounds as though your husband is being made a scapegoat. Regarding the appeal (which he must in the light of the reasons for demotion), he should first and foremost receive written confirmation of the outcome of the hearing. This must state a right of appeal and to whom this should be made and the time in which he should make such an appeal. If he has not received written confirmation of the reasons for the demotion in 3 days, he should send advise them of this and state that he intends to appeal the decision but cannot do so until he receives the neccessary paperwork. If they do not provide written reasons for demotion or written notice of the right to appeal then this is in breach of the Statutory Minimum Procedures required by law. The appeal hearing should also be with an equivalent or more senior grade of staff than the person who carried out this hearing. He should already have been provided with details of the case against him today and the nature of any nvestigation conducted.

 

The appeal should stick to material facts and ask very specific questions countering whatever reasons were given for the demotion. For example if the letter states that the decision was taken due to your husband not phoning the police, then he should ask where in his handbook/contract etc he is specifically advised to take such a course of action in those circumstances, or any training courses where such an instruction was given. He should also cite the previous occasion where he was reprimanded for doing exactly what he has now been disciplined for not doing. If the letter states that 'any reasonable' person would have called the Police, then they need to define 'reasonable' and back this with examples of where the line is drawn and once again provide relevant clauses which cover this in your husband's contract.

 

Probably best to update us when you have more specific information available - I and others will certainly help all that we can. I hope that your husband is able to keep his chin up.

[Ell-enn]

Hi there, I'm sorry to hear your husband has had such a disappointing outcome to the hearing, it seems very unfair.

 

Please post on here as soon as he receives the paperwork and as Sidewinder says, we will help as much as we can - I'm more than happy to help write an appeal document.

 

Kind Regards

 

Ell-enn

[todd58]

hi dont know to much about the legals but if no training given on how to deal with the situation then the onus is on the employer not ee,employer must be able to prove training to afford blame, i.e warehouse persons must be trained to lift correctly to avoid back problems and sign a record of completion,i would suggest the same applies to your husband,as for being demoted i think he has grounds to appeal would also use acas

 

regards paul

[lovelybubbly]

Hello and firstly thank you for all your replies, they have been a calming influence on me and a great deal of help to my husband. When he was in the hearing today he was told that the appropriate paperwork would be posted to him giving details of the hearing and the outcome, I have also got onto his union Unison, even though he has not fulfilled the 13 weeks subs to be able to recieve help the union steward is looking into it for him, stating that they are currently working on another case against this security firm and that they are "a law onto themselves". I agree totally that my husband should ask where is it stated that an employee should call the police, this order was only given 2 days after the incident via a memo (dated I may add yippee, but no good to him on the night), should the appeal fail, is there another port of call that my husband could take. I have a feeling that the company could use the same chap that held the hearing today and simly say that they have noted the appeal but the decision still stands, I would just like to know if there is another route after the appeal should it fail.

Thank you

Rachel & George

[BlurredFX]

I use CAG for debt issues, but drifted here waiting for a response to a post, and thought I may be able to offer some personal experience. I was suspended not too long ago fro Gross Misconduct. Hope you can pick a diamond out of the drivel that follows. But remember:

 

"ACAS all the way - by web/email and phone. Speak to a solicitor."

 

2 things:

 

1) I did this. You are entitled to a free consultation with a solicitor - not sure on the regs (think it might me half an hour - but I imagine you rarely get it - but pick up the yellow pages and find a few, they will give you five mins, in my experience ;-) ). They are looking for a clear cut "no win no fee" job. You are a potential client; a pay cheque. They advertise in the YP for a reason... When I spoke to a few solicitors, they seemed to be looking for procedural failings (by which I mean failing to follow the guidelines ACAS will tell you about - 5 days notice for rescheduling a meeting or something I saw mentioned on your thread, which from memory seems correct.) I feel that your case may have such flaws. Even if it goes to tribunal for loss of earning due to temporary demotion or something, I am guessing that it is the costs they submit / are awarded by the tribunal, are how they get paid - not as a proportion of what they win for your husband. If they can claim £1000 in costs for winning your hubby £500 - they will, I would have thought.

 

Ask ACAS direct questions about these procedures and other things, they seem informed - but they dont give advice or offer opinions. Be creative with your questions - I had one or two who would "tip you the wink" if they liked you! If you put a potential arguement or situation to them, they seem keen enough play devils advocate. IMHO there are gooduns and baduns.

 

2nd Thing

 

I was recently suspended for gross mis-conduct - and since been (reluctantly) re-instated.

 

My employer wanted to give me a bit of a sore backside, but instead of playing the game, they went straight for gross mis-conduct - and made it clear that summary dismissal was an option.

 

So I fired the muck everywhere - at the boss' missus and other people who all got very embarassed. They would have loved to dismiss me there and then - but they were very careful to follow procedure. I was suspended for 5 weeks in total while they tried to figure out how to sack me.

 

Following the disciplinary hearings, I was given a final written warning, and in it they stated that the only reason I was not sacked was because there were no procedures in place for how to conduct myself in that particular environment (on the **** with clients on the costa del sol, as it happens, and yes - we did have a riot!).

 

One more point, and I clarified this with ACAS is that always appeal. In my case I appealed simply because I wanted it looked at again (by a different person - this is a RIGHT - ask ACAS), as I thought the "judgement" (or outcome) was well wide of the mark, which it was! They wanted to slap me, but went one step too far so I lost it and went for it - at the end of the day my job is how i keep a roof over my head and food in my belly.

 

What I take from the above is that they had considerable resources at their disposal, £50k legal insurance (I know for a fact), and plenty of money anyway - if there was a chance of getting rid of me, they would have. But there was no procedure.

 

My final line in the appeal was something along the lines of "If I didn't appeal the outcome, then I would be accepting the Final Written Warning (or whatever outcome), and I am not prepared to do that". It was a killer!! Leaves everything on the record, still in dispute, and if something else happens (or they set him up) and they go for him - this whole story comes back into play - and that's a pile of worms thet neither you or they want to open. Ties their hands to a certain degree I think. Constructive dismissal perhaps?

 

Strikes me that if he has a long and good reputation with the Uni, having been employed there by succesive contractors etc., he should perhaps make subtle representations to the real powers that be (Uni staff who share a moment with more senior staff perhaps?). Make friends, put his version of events on the slightly less formal record... Don't let some jumped up little man bad mouth him to defend his own incompetence!

 

Your Hubby has kept his job - the security firm can always lose the contract and he must be kept on i think (ask ACAS?? or Google it) under TUPE regulations (Tranfer of Undertakings and Protection of Employment) - It's an Act of Parliament I think. As I recall, it came came into play when New Labour started on with PPP and PFI schemes, and transferred employees from one company to another (and the privatisation of London Tube).

 

Might also be worth pointing out to your hubbies employer that by demoting him (and putting it on the record, for you to show to any litigation preoceedings started by the students mother, for example) they are accepting, in some way (given their lack of precedures) their own short comings in dealing with the event... Sidewinders post above seems like a good enough post to start with...

 

I have never been past the disciplinary stage, never had to escalate it to a tribunal or have any knowledge as to what extent this is possible etc., I would have thought there would be people on here who could help you with that. One thing I remember vaguely (and do check this) is that ACAS (as their full name suggests - Aribtration, Conciliation and Arbitration Service) offer to get involved and you can ask your employer to pay for it... They don't have to, but... That's if you really need to start causing bother mind... And in which case you could potentially have an argument for getting the Uni involved..?? Depends if you want to play hard-ball, I guess...

 

Focus on keeping his job, and come to some viewpoint and on whether fighting to get his old job as Supervisor back is a fight worth fighting. Perhaps carrying on as a Patrolman, and keep an eye out for something else? Get too carried away and his employer might be the kind to start fabricating documents... And anyway, I am still paying for my firing off of muck - but as a result they cannot go near me unless I do something badly wrong on the record, otherwise it looks like "Constructive Dismissal".

 

As I understand it, once any conclusion is reached within the firm, you have three month in which to bring it to tribunal. But i don't know what "Tribunal" exactly entails, or how to get there!! I suspect your husbands employer doesn't either, otherwise he would have been more careful and documented things properly. I suspect the Uni would expect them to have the correct procedures in place.. But one thing to remember: Doubt is good. Doubt is your friend, if you view yourself as the "defendant". They are going for him, it's down to them to prove it, or for them to hope for your hubby to lie down and take the bullet. If he has not had the training...

 

Hope my musings prove helpful, if not then no worries, I have had the reply I was looking for and have also polished of a couple of beers writing this rant so it's all good. I feel better at least And posted by far the longest thread I have ever posted. So much so that I have had to modify the opening paragraph to openly acknowledge my drivel.

 

Best of luck

 

Blurred x

[JOSH_IOU]

Good luck with the hearing.

[lovelybubbly]

Hello all

Back again with latest instalment, We sent off a letter to request an appeal to the demotion (many thanks ell-enn, hope I have spelt that right) It was dated 27/01/2008, is there a time limit when we should have a reply back from them, and if we don't receive anything what should we do then? Can we take it further to a tribunal maybe?

Many thanks

Rachel & George

[KENZIE394]

lovelybubbly,

 

Surely your husband is now fully SIA licensed and therefore would have completed his Conflict resolution if badged? These are the training notes issued by SIA guidlines.

 

The SAFER model helps to evaluatea potentially difficult situation, to stay in control and to chose the best response.

S- Step Back -

 

Do not rush in regardless of risk – even to help someone else

Physically step back – we can see more

Mentally and emotionally step back – think clearly and rationally

A- Assess threat -

 

Identify potential dangers

F- Find Help -

 

Consider what help you need. This may involve:

· Call for security or police support

· Seek help from other people nearby

· Ask a manager or other colleague to watch

· Ask a manager or other colleague to take over

· Consider getting a colleague to telephone back later to check that we are OK

E- Evaluate Options -

 

What is available?

· To exit

· To pass control of the incident to another person

· To deal with the person ourselves – and selecting an appropriate approach

R- Respond -

 

Throughout our response we need to continually assess:

· The threat

· Our ability to think and behave rationally

· The effectiveness of our strategy

 

I really struggle with the fact that a SECURITY Supervisor with so many years experience had just done nothing due to not having an instruction written out for him. I have never had written instructions on how to deal with seeing a violent attack in the street, but common sense would prevail and I'd be dialing 999.

 

The company can also verbally inform a person of a change of hearing date by giving 24hrs notice, as long as the person attending agrees. The person who held the D.P is not allowed to hear the appeal, it will be their line manager and a more senior person in the business.

 

However if he appeals, he must present some evidence that was not present or discussed in the first hearing, as most employees just appealed hoping that a different Manager would see the case differently and overturn it. You should also be aware that they can either increase or decrease the severity of the initial award.

 

I'd suspect that a tribunal panel will put themselves in the place of the victim or their mother and not that of an experienced Supervisor claiming that he didn't know what to do?

 

I know this isn't what you wanted to read, but I'm being realistic.