OFT test case

[Castlebest]

the case is still effectively being held in private, the public/press seats are being allocated on a first come first served basis for both morning and afternoon sessions so no one, press or public will be able to sit through the whole hearing.

 

good grief my stay appeal in brum was in a full court room bigger than this room.

 

if the venue cant be changed I think the seats should be allocated to the media and the consumer watchdogs on a full time basis. or maybe its time we went american and put a live feed into the room if the court is like brum it has data feeds there already.

 

What do you think dave and webby?

[Castlebest]

 

Does that mean other members of the public/press can have access to the retiring room - how does it work?

 

Only if you have retired, so you and Van better get your a*ses down there quick

[Castlebest]

 

Although the 11 public places is correct there'll be a feed into a retiring room at the venue.

 

I think we are waiting for Ginan to clarify.

 

It would make sense to make further viewing facilities available for the press at least.

[Castlebest]

Here is Zootscoot's excelent summary of the situation.

 

No its not a stupid question. I'm sure many people will be asking much the same thing over the coming weeks and months

 

The test case is essntially divided into two rounds. The first looks at the legal question of whether the UTCCRs apply or whether the charges are capable in law of amounting to a penalty. The second is a question of fact whether the charges are actually unfair or penalties by looking at the costs of the banks in dealing with a customers breach.

 

The test case starting on 16th is only looking at the first issue

 

Once judgment has been handed down there will be an inevitable appeal by the losing party(ies). Leave may be granted by the High court. If leave is denied by the High Court then an application to appeal can be made to either the Court of Appeal or House of Lords if they use the leapfrog procedure. There will be a further few weeks to see if leave has been granted by the appeal court. If leave is refused that is it for the first round.

 

If leave is granted then it will be a further wait for the appeal court. The OFT has said any appeal will be fast tracked (not in the sense of fast track in the county court) but even then you're looking at a minimum of 6mths being optimistic 12 months more likely. If it goes to Court of Appeal there is then a further appeal to the House of Lords possible. If a preliminary ruling from Europe is required this will delay things also.

 

If the banks win on this first stage then end of story.

 

If the OFT is successful, then on to round two to decide whether charges are actually unfair or amount to a penalty. This is the stage where there may be a compromise agreement. If the legal issues are resolved in our favour then its almost certain that the charges are disproportionate or penalties. Its also a question of fact rather than a question of law so is not likely to be subject to an appeal. So the second stage should be shorter than the first. It may well be that stays could be lifted after the first round, but nothing is certain at this stage

[Castlebest]

I don't see why anyone would want to go to Fleet Street unless they are showing support in an organised demonstration.

 

As Bookie said the important people are the OFT, the banks and the judge, no one else will have any effect on this case, the Judge isn't going to turn around and ask if the pressure groups have anything they would like to add to the arguments .

 

As for witnessing the case the press are far more qualified to record the events and report them (within the bounds of their editorial mandates).

 

So nothing would be achieved by having a CAG representative in attendance.

 

pete

[Castlebest]

To my knowledge I don't think any of the banks have actually paid back one penny of the charges that have been claimed back from them. All of the settlements have been exgratia payments that happen to be for the same amount

[Castlebest]

What Gez is saying is if the banks prove the "fees" for their "services" are legal it will set a precedent in law and everyone will be able to do the same.

 

So all sorts of services will start appearing on your direct debit statements and because they are direct debits you wont have any choice, the money will be gone from your bank account.

 

pete

[Castlebest]

The OFT have ruled Credit Card charges are unlawful if they are over £12 already.

 

I wonder what government departments profit off banks.

 

The OFT have said nothing of the sort, they have said they will not investigate any charge of £12 or below but a court of law would have to decide if a charge was excessive.

 

Thats why all of the credit card companies have set their charges to £12 so they wont get investigated by the OFT the charge of £12 still has to be proved in a court of law and it never will because its still way over what it costs the credit card companies.

[Castlebest]

A cunning plan :lol:

 

Yeah, in the main, banks have made people accept the payments as "Full and FINAL" settlement - they can hardly go back on that. It would be a binding contract.

 

and how would we argue Full and Final? lol ...like your thinking though

[Castlebest]

One thing no one has yet brought up, there are in this huge world of ours many banks who are perfectly capable of moving into new territory and offering the same service they do in Europe and the states, some of them are already major shareholders of our "British Banks".

 

Also I'm sure the "good" Mr Branson will be only too pleased to offer a new way forward when he has Northern Rock re-branded Virgin Bank and good luck to him.

 

I think whatever happens in the test case win or loose the days of "free banking" are now numbered, the eyes of the worlds accountants are watching and there will be an open season on the British Banks.

[Castlebest]

Northern Rock are looking good anyone fancy buying some shares and bailing this half witted government out?

[Castlebest]

So is the oft ruling Final?

 

The credit card £12 charge comes from the August 2006 OFT report where they say they will not investigate charges below £12. Its a figure the OFT set for their own guidance and was never meant to be any sort of limit.

[Castlebest]

I wonder if the banks will submit new defence documents on all of the stayed cases because what they are arguing now isnt what it says on a good number of the County Court claim documents they have submitted.

[Castlebest]

For the second time Zoots excellent appraisal of events

 

No its not a stupid question. I'm sure many people will be asking much the same thing over the coming weeks and months

 

The test case is essentially divided into two rounds. The first looks at the legal question of whether the UTCCRs apply or whether the charges are capable in law of amounting to a penalty. The second is a question of fact whether the charges are actually unfair or penalties by looking at the costs of the banks in dealing with a customers breach.

 

The test case starting on 16th is only looking at the first issue

 

Once judgment has been handed down there will be an inevitable appeal by the losing party(ies). Leave may be granted by the High court. If leave is denied by the High Court then an application to appeal can be made to either the Court of Appeal or House of Lords if they use the leapfrog procedure. There will be a further few weeks to see if leave has been granted by the appeal court. If leave is refused that is it for the first round.

 

If leave is granted then it will be a further wait for the appeal court. The OFT has said any appeal will be fast tracked (not in the sense of fast track in the county court) but even then you're looking at a minimum of 6mths being optimistic 12 months more likely. If it goes to Court of Appeal there is then a further appeal to the House of Lords possible. If a preliminary ruling from Europe is required this will delay things also.

 

If the banks win on this first stage then end of story.

 

If the OFT is successful, then on to round two to decide whether charges are actually unfair or amount to a penalty. This is the stage where there may be a compromise agreement. If the legal issues are resolved in our favour then its almost certain that the charges are disproportionate or penalties. Its also a question of fact rather than a question of law so is not likely to be subject to an appeal. So the second stage should be shorter than the first. It may well be that stays could be lifted after the first round, but nothing is certain at this stage