Badger 69 TV licence debate for old people

[BADGER 69]

I am to be taken to court because I don't have a T V licence and I do have a T V. I have refused point blank to buy a licence and I am going to fight about it in court.

I am 72 years old which makes me a pensioner and it is my contention that to issue a free licence to those over 75 is unfair discrimination. This country signed up to the European Convention of Humane Rights ( ECHR) in 1998. There is a prohabition against discrimination under Article14 of the ECHR and therefor I claim that all pensioners should have a free licence.

I'll endeavour to keep you informed.

Cheers.

BADGER 69.

[jowalshy]

Good luck

[sequenci]

Er, good luck with it.

[freakyleaky]

Best of luck. I think you will need it!

[zootscoot]

Unfortunately Art 14 is not a stand alone provision. You would have to establish a violation of one of your other rights to be able to invoke Art 14.

[jaxads]

Good luck x

[BADGER 69]

Hello ZOOTSCOOT.

Yes you are right about art 14. One has to find a Protocol by which you can use it. That Protocol is protocol 12. My claim is that it discriminates on the basis of age and that by doing this it is unfair ( lacks "equity " and is not "proportional"). Let me give you a hypothetical case. A pensioner, living alone , dependent on state benefit and has one T V ,but because they are under 75 they have to buy a licence. Contrast this with a family of six living in the same house, all engaged in professional occupations, or retired from such, with a T V in every room. Their combine weekly income is almost the same as the lone pensioners yearly income. Because one of them is over the age of 75 they all enjoy the benefit of a free T V licence. Where is the "equity/fairness/proprtionality" in that.

I rest my case.

Ian.

[BADGER 69]

Hello All.

See E U Treaties & legislation. Human Rights. Chapter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union. Chapter 3 article 13. (EQUALITY).

[Hippy-chick]

Hi Badger

 

Just a small point.

 

I'd start with the Human Rights Act itself - which is based on the ECHR.

 

Human Rights Act 1998 (c. 42)

 

So Article 14 of the HRA is pretty much Article 14 of the ECHR, etc., and the "Convention Rights" are included in the Schedules of the HRA.

 

I'm not an expert in this part of the Act (I'm a philosopher of law and a rights theorist, not a lawyer), but I notice that Article 13 of the ECHR is not incorporated into the HRA.

 

Just because an article is not incorporated does not mean it is not a right - but you might have a long fight to get your case to the European Court.

 

Good luck. As I agree - it is against the common meaning of fairness to allow free licences to the over 75s and not to all pensioners.

 

HC

[tomterm8]

Hi Badger

 

Just a small point.

 

I'd start with the Human Rights Act itself - which is based on the ECHR.

 

Human Rights Act 1998 (c. 42)

 

So Article 14 of the HRA is pretty much Article 14 of the ECHR, etc., and the "Convention Rights" are included in the Schedules of the HRA.

 

I'm not an expert in this part of the Act (I'm a philosopher of law and a rights theorist, not a lawyer), but I notice that Article 13 of the ECHR is not incorporated into the HRA.

 

Just because an article is not incorporated does not mean it is not a right - but you might have a long fight to get your case to the European Court.

 

Good luck. As I agree - it is against the common meaning of fairness to allow free licences to the over 75s and not to all pensioners.

 

HC

 

I honestly think this argument is unlikely to work. i don't believe the ECHR prevents discrimination in favour of a vulnerable group of people - such as people over the age of 65. There are a huge number of such discriminations in the benefit system. Ultimatly, the logical conclusion would be that it was unlawful to discriminate in favour of pensioners by offering a state pension, in favour of parents through child benefit, or in favour of pensioners through winter fuel allowance.

[Hippy-chick]

I agree, Tom.

 

I expect that the defence would be that there is no discrimination against pensioners under 75. Rather the exemption to over 75s is just a nice thing that the Government do.

[BADGER 69]

Hello All

I have just started to study law to degree level at the local center for lifelong learning, and I have been looking into this.

There is a problem with trying to take this to the European Court of Huan Rights, actually more than one problem. The first is with expence and secondly even if I win I could still be fined as it would only be referred to the HCtHR to see if it was compatible with the Convention. To take it to the ECtHRs I'd have to exhaust all avenues in the national courts first- House of Lords and all that. Even then it would not mean that the law would have to be changed as the government could just "note" it.

See CASE OF SUTHERLAND v. THE UINITED KINKDOM. I take this as a model of what can be done.

However. In my searches I have discovered that the T V licence issue could be dealt with under the Chapter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union. Chapter 3, Equality, articles 21 and 25. The advantage of doing it this way is that it can be referred to the European Court of Justice in Luxembourgh from the County or Crown Courts for a ruling. If it is found to be not compatible with the articles then I ca't be fined and the law would have to changed

Badger.

[Lula]

Changed , what to? to give everyone a free licence - aint gonna happen, or just make it a charge for everyone irrespective of age?

[BADGER 69]

Hello Lula.

It should be changed to what you can find in other E U countries ( Southern Ireland for instance).

I think all pensioners who are in receipt of pension credits and/or some other benefits should get a free T V licence.

There are many pensioners, particularly women, who are living in poverty. Pensioners who have to decide whether they are going to switch the heat off to buy a T V licence or keep the heat on and to hell with the TV licence.

It is manifestly unfair that people who are quite wealthy, or live with wealthy people, get a free TV licence whereas those who are pensioners living in poverty do not.

Personally I think that the TV receiver licence should be abolished. There are other ways to pay for the BBC.

Cheers.

Badger 69.

[GlasweJen]

or they could just scrap the BBC, it's mince anyway

[trinity14]

Hello, I'm new here, but just a point really about TV licences. The system already discriminates - I pay a TV licence fee for all the BBC channels, but I cannot receive Digital TV or Radio - isn't this in itself discriminatory? I am effectively paying for a product I don't receive, which I consider to be theft, let alone discrimination.

[tomterm8]

Hello, I'm new here, but just a point really about TV licences. The system already discriminates - I pay a TV licence fee for all the BBC channels, but I cannot receive Digital TV or Radio - isn't this in itself discriminatory? I am effectively paying for a product I don't receive, which I consider to be theft, let alone discrimination.

 

No it isn't. It's not theft, and it's not discrimination. It may be unfair.

[blueskies]

Hello, I'm new here, but just a point really about TV licences. The system already discriminates - I pay a TV licence fee for all the BBC channels, but I cannot receive Digital TV or Radio - isn't this in itself discriminatory? I am effectively paying for a product I don't receive, which I consider to be theft, let alone discrimination.

 

I don't agree with the T.V licensing system but it goes like this:

 

You aren't paying for the BBC at all when you buy a TV license. You are buying exactly what it says - a license to possess a TV capable of receiving terrestrial or digital broadcasts at the address on the license. The fact that the money currently goes to the BBC is immaterial as far as the law states. The government could close the BBC down completely and still require you to have the license.

[trinity14]

Thanks for the response, point taken, although I'd still like us all to be able to receive the same service for the same money ; as you say , possibly unfair nothing more :)

[MARTIN3030]

Moved from Welcome Forums.

I think all the main points have been answered.

[Conniff]

I don't agree with the T.V licensing system but it goes like this:

 

You aren't paying for the BBC at all when you buy a TV license. You are buying exactly what it says - a license to possess a TV capable of receiving terrestrial or digital broadcasts at the address on the license. The fact that the money currently goes to the BBC is immaterial as far as the law states. The government could close the BBC down completely and still require you to have the license.

 

That's not correct either.

 

The licence is to use a television receiver. You can own as many as you like as long as you don't use then to receive live television broadcasts.

 

If they did not catch you in the act of watching tv (using a tv receiver for the reception of live television) there is nothing they can do about it.

 

You can have a television just to watch dvd'd or videos but you don't require a licence for it.

 

They cannot ask you to pay for a licence just because the address does not have one. They have to catch you actually using the receiver before they can take any action.

[ForestChav]

Well I fundamentally disagree with the rule - it discriminates against people who are younger and have to pay for a TVL when the over 75s get it free on grounds of age.

 

Everyone should have to pay, or no-one should.

 

Some young families or students can afford a TVL less than some over 75s.

[Surfer01]

I was under the impression that a lot of the revenue goes towards maintaining the network of TV transmission masts across the country. I think the TV licence is well over priced especially if you have Sky and never watch terrestial channels.

[blueskies]

That's not correct either.

 

The licence is to use a television receiver. You can own as many as you like as long as you don't use then to receive live television broadcasts.

 

The Communications Act 2003 and the Communications (Television Licensing) Regulations 2004 modified the requirement to include where TV equipment capable of receiving a signal is installed and not just being used

If they did not catch you in the act of watching tv (using a tv receiver for the reception of live television) there is nothing they can do about it.

They can do, although they often don't

You can have a television just to watch dvd'd or videos but you don't require a licence for it.

If you wish to use a TV for DVD's or Videos then you must have it adapted to not be able to receive a signal

[saintly_1]

Doesn't the TV licence now also cover radio as well ?