It always has seemed strange to me that a 'nationalised' industry is considered inefficient and a burden on the taxpayers, Yet those same industries, once privatised Despite all the same senior management and staff and with shareholders dividends (always high) and massive pay increases and bonuses to those same managers ... Can be immensely profitable. I must be missing something.

All of it if tax evasion is a crime, and lots of it even if tax evasion isnt a crime where the companies/people really make their money. panama papers for those interested in this sort of thing http://panamapapers.sueddeutsche.de/articles/56febff0a1bb8d3c3495adf4/ http://www.wikileaks-forum.com/offshore-leaks/310/leaks-reveal-secrets-of-the-rich-who-hide-cash-offshore-offshoreleaks/18318/ and The BTITISH Virgin Islands a prime offender. Expect the British government to say the leak was the crime ....

+1 http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2016/04/steel-not-sunset-industry-it-s-linchpin-our-economy "The EU has sought to give teeth to trade defence rules with plans to remove the existing rule that caps tariffs at 9-16 per cent, but our government have actively campaigned against these changes. Similarly, Cameron has been China’s chief cheerleader for the granting of Market Economy Status (MES), despite the Chinese steel industry being 80 per cent state owned. Granting MES would all but eliminate our ability to impose tariffs on dumped Chinese steel."

Well theres a good chance that Germany will own the London Stock exchange on its third attempt anyway. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/34855e82-db11-11e5-98fd-06d75973fe09.html#axzz44gB8cmxY

http://www.euractiv.com/section/eu-china-trade/news/anglo-dutch-alliance-resists-pressure-to-impose-higher-tariffs-on-china/

I like the conspiracy theories about conspiracy theories That Roswell was carefully pumped up as UFO's to cover the balloons 'watching the Russian nuclear tests and to cover advanced plane tests and the Russians pumped up thousands of UFO sightings to keep the Americans spending vast sums of money examining them That there is a conspiracy to keep the 'elite' in power as they are Aliens controlling the human race David Icke would be a laugh a minute if he wasn't so serious about it.

Yes it is thankyou antone. I was rather lazy with the link, thanks for that. He (Prof Vernon Bogdanor CBE) also has some highly informative lectures freely downloadable from Gresham College, particularly for those interested in constitutional issues like Scottish independence, the (relatively) recent roots of the middle east issues (suez crisis) and the financial problems (the IMF crisis) http://www.gresham.ac.uk/lectures-and-events/learning-from-history-the-1975-referendum-on-europe http://www.gresham.ac.uk/lectures-and-events/the-imf-crisis-1976 http://www.gresham.ac.uk/lectures-and-events/the-suez-crisis-1956

We dont mind if your preferences lean toward the ones in the skirts or the ones in the kilts Conniff. Whichever they are - Enjoy.

For those who want a little insight into some of the issues http://r.duckduckgo.com/l/?kh=-1&uddg=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.consoc.org.uk%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F02%2FCOSJ2947_The-Crisis-of-the-Constitution_WEB_FINAL.pdf

I think religions are the utter bane of the world. So many people assume religious means spiritual, despite all evidence to the contrary. Now I have faith that many religious people are both good and spiritual, but I think that is despite religions, not because of them.

David Icke makes a very good living from saying the UK Royal family and US 'ruling elite' familes are shape shifting alien lizards

Interesting that despite dumping Steel at below cost into the EU, China has put levies of over 40% on any UK/EU steel going into China. http://news.sky.com/story/1671109/china-hits-steel-made-in-uk-with-46-percent-levy Why do the EU not do the same to China rather than only 16% tariff? Because Cameron is blocking the EU doing that. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/01/steel-crisis-uk-accused-blocking-eu-attempts-regulate-chinese-dumping http://news.sky.com/story/1669533/understanding-the-steel-crisis-10-key-points

I think as long as Cameron remains, then Boris has no chance, but as Osbourne is becoming more and more hated, thanks at least in part to IDS, then Boris has to be in with a good chance once Cameron steps down as things stand. I find it mind boggling that Boris could become PM, but given what has happened with Corbyn, and the possibility of Trump being a potential US presidential nominee, Boris becoming PM seems quite reasonable in comparison. Lets all pray for some Tory Johny come lately. Else get your order in http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/11/24/bacon-scented-underwear_n_8637844.html

Exactly, even though it seems the basis of Conniffs defensive stance on everything. - All that warrants is a reply in kind. You cant reason with unreason.

LOL Getting their own back for the Yanks kidnapping their pilot at Roswell.

Prove it

If we stay, the financial institutions will continue to make money based on Camerons negotiations which protects the city from EU regulation, and the surity that when they fail, the british taxpayer will carry the can protecting those companies and their shareholders. If we leave Boris and his crew will get rid of costly health and safety and working conditions laws, enabling cheaper and cheaper labour that they can get rid of whenever it is profitable to do so Resurgent zero hours contracts and no real minimum wage. ;-(

hehehe Its been a few years since I had those Oh so common issues with them, so I think real change, like with npower, VM, or three is sadly extremely unlikely.

The real question is do the public want to keep funding a self-serving, high management wage paying, pedophile protecting change resisting organisation, for a handful of quality programs and a huge raft of crap. (+ send money into the coffers of the license fee collecting bully-boys)

Thats a terrible offer. I'd offer you a 50% discount off £12k you didnt owe me provided you payed it monthly over 12 months. On a more constructive note. Serves you right for setting a terrible example by being a customer-victim of them fkofilee. You of all people have no excuse for being a customer of theirs do you? You'll be telling us you are an Npower customer next. Shame on you.

If they make every adult pay the for the BBC, Then everybody can pay my water tax, council tax, and car insurance for starters. Everybody needs water Everybody uses something paid for by the council tax ... and anyone can watch me driving my car on the public roads

So summary of issues as i see them Cost Even the brexit crew (as linked above) show approx £3,000 per household return for £340 per household outlay. Almost a tenfold return on investment, and that ignores the ease of market, holidays, flights, living abroad, etc etc. Given that as a member with rebates the UK has one of the lowest costs per capita of all members, it is extremely unlikely that the UK could negotiate better terms for trade with the EU from outside the EU. Anyone who thinks we could should give some evidence why. Common sense and existing deals dictate otherwise. Trade with EU and rest of world Would need to be negotiated. Baring in mind that it might be a much smaller England renegotiating, I think we would be VERY lucky to break even on this. Security Security services co-operation between a brexit UK and the EU would undoubtedly continue broadly as it is. There would almost certainly be no improvement in out border/immigration situation as free movement with the EU is a primary driver in the EU. If we wished to trade with the EU, we would almost certainly need to agree to this. The only way to manage the migration issue is as a member while the situation is hot. having said that, the current 'solution' with Turkey is a complete joke. Additional factor is that we would have at least one EU member attached to the UK - Eire. Add to this that on Brexit Scotland and Wales would almost certainly seek independence and rejoin the EU, meaning that we would end up in the same position as other EU countries, with multiple land joined EU borders. Break up of the UK Devastating to our nation, its prosperity and its place in the world. England would be a much smaller country, and would struggle to maintain or transfer its nuclear deterrent with Scotland as a confirmed nuclear free nation as it states it would be. We would also have to negotiate with Scotland for passage of our warships through Scotland (and possible Wales) territorial waters. Our GDP as England would be significantly reduced. It is the one thing which could put our place on the security council at risk. Lawmaking/Sovereignty Well, when you get down to it : Who do we think would protect the populous interests and basic human rights more? The EU? or whoever happens to get a majority in the UK? (probably right wing tories on the crest of a Brexit) and at worst, whats the difference between some UK lawmakers who have little connection to the populace, and some lawmakers in Brussels? + we would still have to abide by many EU laws and regulations to trade with them. Sovereignty as sold in the referendum campaigns seems to me to be greatly over stated Thats it so far. But writing it down has convinced me that as yet I can identify no gain whatsoever in Britains exiting the EU.

That IS one of the corner-stones of the out campaign, as repeatedly stated and shown in the links That our elected officials make our laws without interference from anyone else? Are you denying what Boris has actually said? I showed the spiegel example (he has said the same thing repeatedly) as it gives a verbatim transcript - no 'interpretation' Here's the quote of Boris's words from the link (he has often said similar) "We don't need the European Union to tell us how many hours we can work, we don't need all this health and safety stuff." Which is also something of a cornerstone of the out campaigners, but usually more politically vague so as to avoid highlighting the real issue. I wish the newspapers showed the evidence and conclusion as conclusively and compellingly as has been done here. old coggers conclusion also seemed inescapable to me given the evidence. Still your turn to try and refute the evidence or even any of the reasoned speculation with something more than bluster. ... or just continue with bluster as expected I'll re-up the conclusions and evidence nearer the date to ensure it isnt lost in your flames - provided some terror attack doesn't delay it, plus any more that might come to light in the meantime.

This is regarding a possible change of Referendum date. but as i was agreeing with a possible outcome of a developing situation, not as a definite which I quite clearly qualified as a possibility (which as linked was also apparently posited by other Tories), I fail to see your point. I agreed with the OP as a possible situation, probably depending most on how bad the terrorist events get. I assume you completely missed the point - or simply dont care about the actual point. Why didn't you simply say something like I dont think thats likely due to xxxxxx I quite possibly would have agreed with you.

One place is right here in this thread Conniff, Right Here, and clearly by someone who read the information taken from Boris's (and others of similar ilke) own words, and who understood what and where those laws which so stick in the craw of Boris & crew brought us from. Its then a simple matter of understanding that reversing those laws, reverses the path back toward the horrible place we came from at such immense cost to so many.