Thanks, Ibruk. Excellent advice as always.

In terms of the specific disclosure, how does this sound :

"In relation to the above case, I have made numerousrequests of the respondent to supply me with some documentation that I feel is pertinent to the case and, despite assurances that this information would be provided,the documentation requested has not yet been supplied in full.

In my initial request for information, made on XXXXXX, I requested “access to all of the emails sent from my personal Employee email address with XXXXXX to both XXXXXX and XXXXXX plus copies of all replies sent by these individuals to my address XXXXXX”. I requested that “these emails cover the period from XXXXXX to the date of my termination by XXXXXX”. I also requested “copies of all finalised sales visit timetables for the same period”.

I appreciate that the respondent has provided emails between XXXXXX and myself, and copies of my sales visit timetables, however I am yet to receive copies of emails sent between myself and XXXXXX.

The exchange of witness statements was delayed twice to allow for the provision of the above documentation and the exchange ultimately took place on XXXXXX with the caveat attached that “If either party wishes to make supplemental amendments to theirstatement(s) in light of such documents, [it is agreed] to do so once they have been received. Please note that this will not be an opportunity for either party to amend their statement(s) to reflect the other party's evidence. Such amendments must strictly relate to the additional documents”.

Conscious of the fact that the hearing is only three weeks away and that both the respondent and I may require some timeto update our witness statements accordingly, I hereby wish to request that theTribunal make a Specific Disclosure Order in relation to the aforementioned documentation."

Thanks, Becky.

 

Can I also ask, I've been looking over the witness statements from the respondent - they've included two : one from the initial hearing manager whose decision it was to dismiss me and the second from the appeal hearing manager (the one who said "I'd have sacked you for that anyway" at the start of my appeals hearing).

 

At what point am I able to question them on their statements? Am I allowed to accuse them of using extremely circumstantial evidence against me?

 

I've not been able to get to a tribunal yet to see how they operate as they always seem to get pulled at the last minute where I am and on my days off.

 

So I've really NO IDEA AT ALL as to how the day will actually progress.

 

I'm scared that I'll do something the hearing judge would not like. Like if I remember something in the room and say it but it's not included in my witness statement. Will that work against me? Should I just stick to my statement and say nothing else?

 

I think I love you, by the way.

Okay, so it's actually a good sign that these are the only two witnesses. The disciplinary and appeals manager are the most nervous type of witnesses and so it's easy to catch them out. It's a prime opportunity for you to trip them up during cross examination in terms of the procedure followed and the fact that the decision had already been made. It's worth spending some significant time preparing awkward questions which they'll hate. I'm of the opinion that the more brutal the questions, the better. The ET judge will tell you if you're going too far, but by then they may have already put their foot in it.

In terms of the order of events, the judge will ultimately decide on the day, but in a standard unfair dismissal claim the respondent may well be required to read their evidence first (although at our local ET they am the claimant to go first). You read your statement and then are cross examined. You can then be re examined if you have a legal rep. If not, then evidence switches to the other side, they read their statements and then you cross examine them. The judge or lay members may also ask either party questions. You should direct your answers to the judge and speak slowly so he has time to write down your responses.

Once you're done with evidence, each party makes their closing submissions. The party who went first is usually the last party to make closing submissions. Usually the judge will then "reserve" his decision and write to the parties with an outcome within a few weeks. It is possible however for judgment and remedy to be dealt with as part of the full hearing, although this rarely happens in practice.

Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god.... Are you married? Do you like stocky, bald men?

That is absolutely ASTONISHINGLY brilliant advice. You and Ik have been absolute god sends on this thread. I really cannot thank you enough.

The first hearing manager actually asked me to do a favour for him that was completely against the rules of the company.... It was an unofficial favour, of course, but something he shouldn't have expected me to do in his position of seniority/responsibility. It's not in my witness statement, but can I use it to illustrate that he was happy to flex or ignore rules when it suited him?

Thanks so very much again. I'm going to get my Specific Disclosure sent off tomorrow.

KoF xx

Lol, you're welcome.

I would ask questions like that, yes. The point of cross examination is to pull apart THEIR witness evidence, so you can "seek clarification" on anything which you don't agree with.

Hi Becky,

How does one address the 'judge' and other members of the Tribunal? Your Honour? Your Royal Highness? Sir? Madam? Oh Great and Powerful Oz?

Thanks

Sir or Madam.

I'm struggling a little bit with my witness statements guys, I think. The first statement, from the original hearing manager, has a lot of stuff in it from the person who conducted what the comapany called an "Initial Interview". It's basically where I get to put my point across and they take a statement from me. It's conducted by a manager who doesn't get involved in anything after this interview.

Anyway, I've made a number of notes on the statements kinda questioning the relevance of certain pieces of information, but I cannot help but wonder how he can be expected to comment when he wasn't actually the one dealing with that part of the process.

I can try and tie it in to his part of the process as they are obviously linked, but is it OK to question him on something in HIS statement that was said by someone else?

I've also discovered that from being told I was going to be given a disciplinary hearing to the hearing taking place was two weeks when the company's own internal policy says it should take place within seven days..... I'll argue that this was an early indication of the company's disregard for their own policy? I will also be asking this witness about a favour he asked me to do for him (mentioned previously) that is against the rules and question why he feels it is appropriate to use his position of authority to request a favour of an employee, yet at the same time enforce rigidly other policy when dealing with that same employee. Not sure how I'll get on with that, though.

Am going to phone the ET on Monday to check up on the Specific Disclosure Order, as they auto-response I got said it'd be ten days or so until they get back to me but, given the time constraints in place here, I'd ideally like to get things moving more quickly - and the respondent has had long enough.

well they conceded a point, quite a major one in terms of medical evidence, but have stuck a date to it that is gonna be a trial to prove isnt correct. So they have admitted something, but again made it up to me to prove that isnt as they say.

Further statement questions :

What the first witness and the second witness are saying is largely identical so, of course, my questions to them are much the same - identical. Is that OK? It might sound like a daft thing to ask, but won't I bore the ET by going over the same stuff again and again?

Am I allowed to make statements about their witness statements, or only ask questions?

Cheers

Hi guys,

The respondent has replied to my request for a specific disclosure order and is trying to get the Tribunal to deny the request. I found this somewhat unusual, as I didn't think a SDO would be seen as a bad thing at all, only as a formal request for information? Is there a reason why they'd have gone to the effort of trying to have my request denied?

Cheers

Hi, it's not too uncommon. What were the documents you requested and what was the reason for their objections?

You have to list a statement of issues, this is the complaints that you have against the respondent, you have to do it and get it to the respondents solicitor by he date set.

Yes , you still have to do it.

I had to do it for my case i have linked the post i made about it:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?343641-Tribunal-Proceeds!

Bloody hell, impressive list.... I'd need some help to get anywhere close to that.

well that was written between myself and my respondents solicitor, i was being annoying by correctling his spelling and such - which amused me for most of a day.

The respondent has offered a "dates only reference" which is something, I believe, they offer all employees anyway. I just don't think that's appropriate as it basically involves me almost justifying the action they took against me, which I feel went a step too far.

I was late replying to the original CMO, the remedy, by a day. They requested the case be thrown out.

They're appealed against my request for a specific disclosure order, which I don't understand the point of at all. I mean, if it's issued, what's the harm to them? I just don't get it.

In general, they've just been really quite difficult. Shouldn't expect differently, though.

I recognise that they probably have a fairly strong case, but it's all circumstancial.

I'd been discussing (on that blasted Facebook) looking for another job as my Uncle's health was deteriorating and I thought being based full time in Manchester would be of benefit. The place I was working at part-time had offered me a permanent contract and a promotion at around the same time as my Uncle's fall.

So my primary employer is saying that I took the month off work, blamed the need to take time off on my Uncle's fall, but had actually been wanting to 'try out' this new job without having to leave my main job. That's basically the basis of their case against me.

I'll be the first one to admit that the timing is suspicious all round, but as far as I'm concerned, I've provided evidence that my Uncle fell and needed care, I've provided evidence that I had an arrangement in place to secure the time off work and had not been given cause to doubt that the time off had been granted, I will question what relevance my postings on Facebook really have - is there a law against am employee seeking the advice of his peers about a potential career move? Until I hand in my notice to my employer, as far as they should be concerned, I still work there and it's inappropriate for them to make assumptions to the contrary.

I really am reliant on the Tribunal recognising that, as an employee with ten years of unblemished service, the timings here were simply unfortunate and coincidental and that the employer shouldn't have jumped to conclusions about my intentions.

Hi

Kgrayson00 Thread is now here

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?339039&p=3811172#post3811172

Please continue to discuss kingofrod's case here and Kgrayson on their own thread

Thank you

to be honest it really sounds like they a clutching at straws, and i would point that out to them! It does sound like you will be at the mercy of the tribunal, but as long as you stick to your story and dont let the respondent barrister take you off message.

to be honest it really sounds like they a clutching at straws, and i would point that out to them! It does sound like you will be at the mercy of the tribunal, but as long as you stick to your story and dont let the respondent barrister take you off message.

I need to get onto my new Statement of Loss/Remedy, though. Do you think there's a deadline as to when I can submit this?

Cheers again, I.

Is that aimed at me? If so, yay! I like to think they're clutching at straws a bit, too. I recognise the timing of everything was a bit suspect, but nobody can control when someone has a fall and hurts themselves. I was able to provide confirmation from the Dr. that the fall had happened and that I was needed at home, I was able to provide evidence of an arrangement being in place by which I could secure time off. I really quite like my chances.

 

I need to get onto my new Statement of Loss/Remedy, though. Do you think there's a deadline as to when I can submit this?

 

Cheers again, I.

Your schedule of loss should have been submitted at the outset to the ET and respondent however this can be amended throughout proceedings right up to the day of the hearing I would imagine

Hi K, yeah - I did submit it earlier, but in it I said I'd made no loss and wasn't looking for any financial reward.

Having re-done my quackulations, I'm quite a bit out of pocket and will continue to be so as my previous job paid significantly more than my new one.

I had hoped that by saying I wasn't looking for financial reward and putting a VERY reasonable settlement offer through to them (involving NO money whatsoever), they might play ball. As it happens, they didn't, so I looked at my figures again and have found about £500.00 a month in shortfall between old job and new.

You've obviously realised this now but put the niceties to one side and think of yourself.

Amend you SOL to reflect the shortfall from dismissal to the hearing date. You can also claim 'future losses' but I think this is at the ET discretion. That's all I put on my SOL, future losses: at the tribunals discretion.

Cheers K.

Starting to get a little anxious as I'm just over a week out now and need to :

a) redo SOL and get this through to Tribunal and respondent

b) await final documentation from respondent which they promise will be with me tomorrow

> > > i) failing this, chase up my request for a SDO

c) use this information to update my witness statement

d) ensure the respondent updates the bundle accordingly to include all of this new information and gives me an opportunity to update my page number references in my own statement

e) complete the list of issues that is due a week out - I have no idea where to begin with this

Quite a list but you will get through this.

How many pages is your witness statement out of interest?

14 very full pages......

I've got 14 pages of questions for the first of their two witnesses. Suspect I'll have a not dis-similar number for their second. Thing is though that there's a lot of repetitiveness in the questions I have. The first witness speaks of the same thing repeatedly so I have the questions written down repeatedly to ask him. Course, things always seem longer on paper, so when spoken aloud the statements will probably only last fifteen minutes a piece, if that.

I will try and get the SOL updated today. Need to start on the list of issues today, too, but as mentioned, I don't know where to begin, despite Ibruk's excellent sample.

I was hoping I wouldn't have to do this as the instructions from the Tribunal say "if both parties are professionally represented". I read that to mean that this was a very legal document and not something that a lay person would tend to be able to produce, and so the Tribunal worked without it in instances where one or both parties are without professional representation.