CCAs on Microfiche

[obilisk]

I beleive I`m right in thinking that if a credit card company takes a debtor to court, they have to produce the origional copy of the signed CCA before any action can be taken.

I have been told that they store the older CCAs on microfiche. If this is correct, how do they produce the origionals?

Or am I missing something blindingly obvious ( I probably am, knowing me!!)

[cerberusalert]

You can bring them to 'Strict Proof' meaning they have to produce the original at court.

 

A lot of companies microfiched documents to 'save space' & warehoused the original documents which in many cases have been lost/destroyed.

[obilisk]

OK thanks. Is there any way of telling if the copy they send out when a

cca request is made is from microfiche or a photocopy of the origional? Mine is from 1987, by the way

[cerberusalert]

A microfiche copy is like looking at a photograph negative, it tends to have black borders.

 

If it's that old, is it enforceable?

[obilisk]

How do you mean? Does the age affect the enforcibilty?

[cerberusalert]

The older applications/agreements sometimes did not include the prescribed terms which are required to be within the 'four corners' of the agreement. These are, credit limit, repayment terms, %APR, right to cancel etc.

[WelshMam2009]

I beleive I`m right in thinking that if a credit card company takes a debtor to court, they have to produce the origional copy of the signed CCA before any action can be taken.

I have been told that they store the older CCAs on microfiche. If this is correct, how do they produce the origionals?

Or am I missing something blindingly obvious ( I probably am, knowing me!!)

 

See below. As Cerberusalert says, you can put them to strict proof but the requirement is that originals should be available, not must be available.

 

CPR 16

Practice Direction PART 16

STATEMENTS OF CASE

This Practice direction supplements CPR Part 16

 

OTHER MATTERS TO BE INCLUDED IN PARTICULARS OF CLAIM

 

7.3

Where a claim is based upon a written agreement:

 

(1) a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing, and

 

(2) any general conditions of sale incorporated in the contract should also be attached (but where the contract is or the documents constituting the agreement are bulky this practice direction is complied with by attaching or serving only the relevant parts of the contract or documents).

[obilisk]

Right, OK thanks for the help. The copy they sent me has the thick black borders that Cerberus mentioned and these are peppered with white speckles. There are also quite alot of thin white lines, like cracks, which run vertically along the full length of the page.

Although there is a bit of bleed through from the reverse side of the document on the copy, so I don`t know if that would happen on microfiche, would it? (I can`t scan a copy up, unfortunately)

So if they don`t HAVE to produce the origionals for "strict proof", would there be much point in doing it?

Parts of the T&Cs are very difficult to read in places, and totally illegible in others

[WelshMam2009]

Right, OK thanks for the help. The copy they sent me has the thick black borders that Cerberus mentioned and these are peppered with white speckles. There are also quite alot of thin white lines, like cracks, which run vertically along the full length of the page.

Although there is a bit of bleed through from the reverse side of the document on the copy, so I don`t know if that would happen on microfiche, would it? (I can`t scan a copy up, unfortunately)

So if they don`t HAVE to produce the origionals for "strict proof", would there be much point in doing it?

Parts of the T&Cs are very difficult to read in places, and totally illegible in others

 

Strict proof would normally entail producing the original or perhaps a certified copy (not sure about the latter).

 

Unfortunately, it tends to be down to the Judge's discretion which is why you can't rely on it.

 

Is the copy legible...I mean without straining your eyes too much??

 

If not, then you can challenge on this basis...

 

Regulation 2 of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557)

2 Legibility of notices and copy documents and wording of prescribed Forms

(1) The lettering in every notice in a Form prescribed by these Regulations and in every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall, apart from any signature, be easily legible and of a colour which is readily distinguishable from the .

[obilisk]

No, it`s virtually impossible to read in places. Thanks for that, Welsh Mam, I shall certainly challenge them, because I don`t see how it would be enforcible in the state it`s in

[Khadzay]

Hi folks,

 

Take a deep breath

 

I have now received my CCA from RBS, however, Im concerned with its content and format, firstly I asked for the original signed true copy, what they have sent me is a a photocopy, faxed agreement, with my signature on one of the sheets, which is the Customer duty of care form, (which I guess is not the loan agreement. I have also received a front sheet describing loan amount interest charged what I should expect to pay back, however the worrying thing about this is, its in a different format, the next page describes the terms and conditions which I cannot read at all with no date on there , the more worrying point is, the signature is different to the duty of care form, the only time I used this signature( and this was deliberate), when I last corresponded with them intialling it SP (signtature format) whereas my first name starts with S and surname I.

 

I know I have gone on a bit here, but I smell a HUGE rat, can someone PLEASE help

[WelshMam2009]

Hi folks,

 

Take a deep breath

 

I have now received my CCA from RBS, however, Im concerned with its content and format, firstly I asked for the original signed true copy, what they have sent me is a a photocopy, faxed agreement, with my signature on one of the sheets, which is the Customer duty of care form, (which I guess is not the loan agreement. I have also received a front sheet describing loan amount interest charged what I should expect to pay back, however the worrying thing about this is, its in a different format, the next page describes the terms and conditions which I cannot read at all with no date on there , the more worrying point is, the signature is different to the duty of care form, the only time I used this signature( and this was deliberate), when I last corresponded with them intialling it SP (signtature format) whereas my first name starts with S and surname I.

 

I know I have gone on a bit here, but I smell a HUGE rat, can someone PLEASE help

 

Best to start a new thread Khadzay and scan the documents in for comment. Remove all personal details but you might want to explain the signature anomalie on your post.