Link Claimform - MBNA card 'debt' **WON**

[ukaviator]

Whoooohoooo !!! well done ..

[noomill060]

A month and a bit late, but congrates from me too!

 

Looks like the judge was indeed giving them enough rope, and sure enough, they used it to hang themselves with!

[tomterm8]

Firstly, CONGRATULATIONS....

 

 

 

Hi sequenci

 

Can you please clarify how it is an offence to pursue a debt without a CCA? My undertsanding is that it is an offence to do so while in default of s77/78, but not a general no CCA no pursue.

 

Best Wishes

MoonHawk

 

failing to provide a Credit Agreement is an offence under s77-79 regardless of whether they pursue the debt or not.

 

If they are aware a CCA is unenforceable, making any statement contrary to that would be an offence under s40 of the Administration of Justice act and/or the Fraud Act.

[ODC]

failing to provide a Credit Agreement is an offence under s77-79 regardless of whether they pursue the debt or not.

 

If they are aware a CCA is unenforceable, making any statement contrary to that would be an offence under s40 of the Administration of Justice act and/or the Fraud Act.

Looks like our good buddies in Leeds are skating on VERY thin ice the way they are chasing all these Statute Barred Barclaycard debts

[MoonHawk]

Thanks Tom.

 

The issue I have is that they tend to use the "(if any)" argument from those sections. They say we sent you what we have and because it says "if any)" we are in the clear. TS and OFT seem to agree with that in principal too.

 

Best Wishes

MoonHawk

[steven4064]

It works both ways though - they may be 'in the clear' because there isn't 'any' but they can't enforce the debt for the same reason.

[BigBadCAGBagger]

The 'if any' has been debated at long length and it is stated (by the author of the act and by other authorities) that the 'if any' refers to agreements that do not require an agreement. This is another holy grail question - anyone got any case law to back that up?

[steven4064]

Isn't "agreements that do not require an agreement" a contradiction in terms?

[BigBadCAGBagger]

Not really, you don't need an agreement when you purchase a bus pass or tokens for things do you? An agreement can be verbal, therefore you will not have a written agreement. If a written agreement is required (i.e. for a credit card) you can't hide behind the 'if any' clause as there should be a written agreement.

 

Somewhere in the depths of the CCAA thread there is a more eloquent description.

[tomterm8]

Isn't "agreements that do not require an agreement" a contradiction in terms?

 

No, actually it isn't, legally.

 

In the realm of unauthorised overdraft, if you go overdrawn without authorisation on your account, and they allow you to continue this for three months, a credit agreement is implied by the CCA 1974 regs, even though neither party actually... well, agreed, anything. The bank must send a copy of the terms of the overdraft within 3 months for this "agreement" to be enforceable against the debtor.

 

:-|

 

Isn't english law great, LOL;)

 

Although, this question comes up more often in the guise of authorised overdrafts, where there is a very limited requirement for an credit agreement. It also comes up in non-commercial loans, or small agreements, where there may not be a requirement for any written agreement whatsoever.

[steven4064]

Don't take any notice of me, I was being flippant - sorry

[stapeley]

Very enlighting thread chaps .Could I just ask about assignment of debt .The OC sell off a debt . If you are taken to court could you request the notice of ASSIGNMENT from the DCA ? And should you have been given all the details of an assignment by the OC . I recieved a very basic letter just saying A had sold to B . Can I use this lack of imformation in a court case ?

[MoonHawk]

Thank you for all the replies chaps.

 

I understand the explanation and have also read the previous discussions in relation to the "if any", including the comments of the draftsman of the CCA.

 

My question still remains as what section of CCA or case law to I quote to say that they need to produce a copy and they are in default until they do. More and more of the credit companies are hiding behind the "if any" and continuing to chase the debt regardless, and OFT/TS will not act.

 

Best Wishes

MoonHawk

[ODC]

Very enlighting thread chaps .Could I just ask about assignment of debt .The OC sell off a debt . If you are taken to court could you request the notice of ASSIGNMENT from the DCA ? And should you have been given all the details of an assignment by the OC . I recieved a very basic letter just saying A had sold to B . Can I use this lack of imformation in a court case ?

As far as I know that is all that you are entitled to i.e. Proof from Greedybank PLC that they have sold the debt to Shylock DCA on a certain date. For obvious reasons the Greedybank does not have to say how many pennies in the pound Shylock paid them.

[stebiz]

A month and a bit late, but congrates from me too!

 

Looks like the judge was indeed giving them enough rope, and sure enough, they used it to hang themselves with!

 

Thanks :grin:

 

Stebiz

[stebiz]

Firstly, CONGRATULATIONS....

 

 

 

 

 

failing to provide a Credit Agreement is an offence under s77-79 regardless of whether they pursue the debt or not.

 

If they are aware a CCA is unenforceable, making any statement contrary to that would be an offence under s40 of the Administration of Justice act and/or the Fraud Act.

 

 

A special Thanks must go to you tomterm8 for helping me with the wording etc Cheers again.

 

Stebiz

[FANTASY CHARGES]

Not really, you don't need an agreement when you purchase a bus pass or tokens for things do you? An agreement can be verbal, therefore you will not have a written agreement. If a written agreement is required (i.e. for a credit card) you can't hide behind the 'if any' clause as there should be a written agreement.

 

Somewhere in the depths of the CCAA thread there is a more eloquent description.

 

HAS any body got any idea how green shield stamps would relate to the ccact 1974 FC believes they were credit tokens ???

 

and on googling it seems they would have been the flavour of the month then see argos stores

 

possibly they were an if any ???

[steven4064]

HAS any body got any idea how green shield stamps would relate to the ccact 1974 FC believes they were credit tokens ???

Would that apply to Nectar points?

[tomterm8]

HAS any body got any idea how green shield stamps would relate to the ccact 1974 FC believes they were credit tokens ???

 

and on googling it seems they would have been the flavour of the month then see argos stores

 

possibly they were an if any ???

 

green shield stamps are reward stamps, aren't they? I.e. when you buy a pint of milk, they might give you 2p stamp.

 

In which case, it is entirely unrelated to the consumer credit act, since there is no credit involved whatsoever.

 

Now, if the green shield thingie were a card that allowed you to borrow money, it would be credit. the next question is.... would it be regulated credit? If the agreement is for greater than £50, carries an interest rate and/or has more than 4 repayment times per year then it will be regulated credit. (yeah, it's more complex than that, but still...)

 

after that, determining the exact form of credit is even harder... if the money can only be obtained from the card, then it is certainly a credit token. However, many overdraft accounts have something that looks like a credit token (i.e. a debit card). Nevertheless, they are probably running account credits.