Agreement Enforceability

[Monty2007]

Excellent. Many thanks Peter, I appreciate your advice.

 

Monty

[Josie8]

.................

Edited January 21, 2009 by Josie8

[noomill060]

Very sorry to hear youre leaving, mochamoo, please reconsider. I agree, this was a 100% friendly place a while back when everyone was basically 100% clueless as to the Law on so many points. A few are now (or believe they are) clued up and appear to be exhibiting EXACTLY the same haughty arrogance and snottiness to those still learning as the banks and their solicitors.

 

Please dont go, there will always be a few bad apples, but dont let them deprive you of the knowledge you have a right to.

[noomill060]

Hi Peter- thanks for your reply. You are a font of knowledge and are much in demand!

 

In my case, (Barclaycard) the 1999 T&Cs are on a separate A4 size folded leaflet. The application form is a separate A4 size mailshot, no terms, just a sig box (credit agreement).

 

The T&C copy they sent me consists of photocopies of both sides of a leaflet, on two bits of A4, stapled together. I have a feeling they sent the terms to me with the card itself, but not sure.

 

I'll scan it tomorrow at the library and put it up here.

[Peterbard]

Peter do the prescribed terms on the 'application form' need to be on the signature page or can they be in the small print on the reverse side or just in totally seperate terms and conditions.

 

I have read the regulations which lay out the order in which the prescribed terms should be and the signature box comes last so I assume they have to be on the face of the document but are there any other regulations anywhere saying that they don't have to be?

hi

There is nothing in the regs that say the sig box has to be inthe same place as the financial detailsin pre 2004 agrements in fact the OFT says

Signatures All agreements are to be signed by both customer and trader, or their representatives,

and the date of signature entered. The customer’s signature and its date must be inside a box. This box can be of any size and appear anywhere in the agreement, but the wording inside it must be easily legible and must follow that for the appropriate type of agreement as set out in Appendix 2. The signature of the trader and its date must be outside the customer’s signature box. Similarly the signature of any witness, and its date, must also be outside the customer’s signature box.

. Best regards

Peter

[Peterbard]

Hi

Regarding the above this situation was remedied in the 1482 regs whe it says that the sig box must reside within the key information ,doesn't help you much i know .

 

Best regards

Peter

[toddle2u]

dfw - In exactly the same situation as yourself with Egg. I take it that the next step would be to for them to prove that they sent the second notice containing the cancellable rights?

I also have another problem with Egg in that they have sent me a 'true' copy of the default notice which is significantly different from the original (which I have) which means that they have committed fraud by false representation for gain!

[davefirewalker]

dfw - In exactly the same situation as yourself with Egg. I take it that the next step would be to for them to prove that they sent the second notice containing the cancellable rights?

 

 

You need to S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) them for a FULL disclosure!! any thing what they have ever said wrote or sent you should be in it

 

 

I also have another problem with Egg in that they have sent me a 'true' copy of the default notice which is significantly different from the original (which I have) which means that they have committed fraud by false representation for gain!

 

talk about needing to stop digging when you are already in a hole

 

looks they are up it without a paddle

 

rgds

 

dave

[vinegarvera]

Can you explain what the differences are between the true copy and the one they have sent you??

If not could you take a look at the one I posted and advise if it is the same as either of yours

[toddle2u]

dfw - already SAR'd them and information did not include second notice of cancellation rights.

 

vv - was different in layout, signed by different persona nd had different correspondence address for Egg.

[vinegarvera]

Ahhh maybe if I try to dig my old one out I will discover the same???

[davefirewalker]

 

1. dfw - already S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)'d them and information did not include second notice of cancellation rights.

 

2. vv - was different in layout, signed by different persona nd had different correspondence address for Egg.

 

 

1 GOOD then they cannot rely on it in court.

2 even better...sounds like a fraud to me !

 

rgds

 

dave

[surprise]

Peter

I've got a problem with a credit card application/agreement. This one is confusing as it says Step 1 please read the Credit Card Agreement and sign in the ****e box. Then under the white box its says We CANNOT process the application without your signature. Also their name is typed in, so I signed afterwards. They have not dated it.

 

This was sent to me as a mailshot so I there was no contact when I applied for it. Don't know if this makes a difference. I didn't receive anything else from them until the card arrived.

 

Where do I stand on this one.

 

many thanks as always.

Sorry as well, I posted this on the wrong thread earlier, meant to put it on this one.

[adarling2006]

can you have a look over this agreement for me please, i'm not sure if it's unenforceable or improperly executed. what would i do if it's improperly executed? etc etc etc.

Comments and advice most welcome

black horse agreement.doc

[davefirewalker]

can you have a look over this agreement for me please, i'm not sure if it's unenforceable or improperly executed. what would i do if it's improperly executed? etc etc etc.

Comments and advice most welcome

 

I'm sorry but it looks 100% to me.

 

ALL the prescribed terms are there

 

the only thing missing would be cancellation rights .....but I guess you signed it in their office so its non-cancellable

 

I would imagine that rights of protection/remedies, default charges etc would be in the T&C

 

Dave

[noomill060]

So, as the customer's sig need not be on the same page as the prescribed terms/financial details (in pre-2004 agreements) this would appear to imply that the prescribed terms can indeed be included on a separate page or simply embodied in the T&Cs, sent with my first Barclaycard, a week or so after the application was sent, as in my case.

 

Pretty much what a TS officer told me when I complained about just recieving a copy of the application form in reponse to my CCA request.

 

 

Mind you, he also told me that Tom Brennan had lost his claim against NatWest...

 

Seems a bit of a bum's rush when signature in a wee box on an application form (that claims to be an agreement) can legally bind you to a contract you havent actually read.

 

(At this point I went away and did some research)

 

But then, after reading this-http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/consumer_credit/oft786a.pdf.

 

If a pre-2005 agreement (ie: one governed by Thatcher's 1983 SI amendment) was only signed by the customer, it isnt considered properly executed and so falls within the transitional arrangements, whereby damn near all agreements, which remained unexecuted by both parties at the time of the enactment of the 2004 regs, fall into the requirements of the 2004 regs.

 

So t'would seem that an awful lot of pre 2005 agreements are now utterly unenforceable...

[noomill060]

Have I stumbled on something earth shattering here, or has this been done to death before and I've completely missed it?

[noomill060]

suprise- no sig, no agreement, no argument.

[davefirewalker]

No 1983 regs state the the prescribed terms must be in the signature document

 

dave

 

 

edit

 

sorry didnt fully read the post

 

Dave

[noomill060]

I didnt fully read the post either.

[Peterbard]

Hi

My post don't come til after noon now used to be able to read it with me breakfast.What is this bloody country coming to

Sorry lost the plot

 

Regards

Petr

[Peterbard]

can you have a look over this agreement for me please, i'm not sure if it's unenforceable or improperly executed. what would i do if it's improperly executed? etc etc etc.

Comments and advice most welcome

HI

I havn't had time but have you checked the maths.

Also was the insurance optional or mandatory if the latter it should be in the tcc of the loan and not included in the credit.

I will have a more in depth look later

 

Regards

Peter

[Peterbard]

No 1983 regs state the the prescribed terms must be in the signature document

 

dave

 

 

edit

 

sorry didnt fully read the post

 

Dave

Unfortunately "document doesnt mean the same as same piece of paper.

Their is nothing in the 1983 regs that says it must be part of the financial details in fact in the contrary the OFT says the signature box can be located anywher whithin the document.

 

Best regards

Peter

[davefirewalker]

Unfortunately "document doesnt mean the same as same piece of paper.

Their is nothing in the 1983 regs that says it must be part of the financial details in fact in the contrary the OFT says the signature box can be located anywher whithin the document.

 

Best regards

Peter

 

Hi peter

 

the point I was making was that the prescribed terms must be in the signature document....as opposed to burried in another document reffered to ie the T&C as a seperate doc.

 

I do realise that an agreement may stretch to more than one page.

 

all the best

 

dave

[noomill060]

No 1983 regs state the the prescribed terms must be in the signature document

 

dave

 

 

edit

 

sorry didnt fully read the post

 

Dave

 

 

Could you point to where it says this, please?