SLC Cannot Supply The Original Agreement

[InKogneeToh]

Exactly, time for a change, don't ya think?

 

 

What's the point? They're all the same!!

[un1boy]

What's the point? They're all the same!!

 

I meant the consumer revolution!!! mwhahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaa

[InKogneeToh]

I meant the consumer revolution!!! mwhahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaa

 

Oh, I see!!

 

Shall we start a ballot for which CAG members we want as our MPs?

 

Peter can be Minister for Debt Collection - first law to be abolished - Enforcement powers!

 

Oh dear! Off topic again!!

 

10-9-8-7-6-5-4 .............................. ZAP!!

[un1boy]

Oh, I see!!

 

Shall we start a ballot for which CAG members we want as our MPs?

 

Peter can be Minister for Debt Collection - first law to be abolished - Enforcement powers!

 

Oh dear! Off topic again!!

 

10-9-8-7-6-5-4 .............................. ZAP!!

 

Haha, sounds good!

[Peterbard]

Hi

 

Steady MIB are bad enough don't want MI5 on our necks

 

You not seen me !!Right

 

Peter (oops no not me someone else.)

[rippedoffagain]

Anybody interested in the origins of banking, avery interesting read.

The Origins of Modern Banking

 

Like a good conspiricy.

The The Rothschilds Part I

[rhsymonds]

Right, after sending template N (request for agreement in accordance with CCA), i have received this reply a month later, along with an unsigned (by anyone) copy of my agreement.

 

I have enclosed a true copy of the agreement which fulfils our obligations under section 77 of the CCA. I can also confirm that our laid down written procedures require the bank to provide each customer with a a copy of the agreement at the time paperwork is completed (really cant remember if i got this). As per regulation 3(2)(b) Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Document) Regulations 1983 this copy does not require signing.

 

I trust this meets with your requirements.

 

HSBC

 

Am i correct in thinking they have already defaulted, and that they have actually acheived nothing by sending this to me ? There isnt a signature anywhere on it.

 

Any help from you superbrains would be marvellous.

 

Ross

[rippedoffagain]

Right, after sending template N (request for agreement in accordance with CCA), i have received this reply a month later, along with an unsigned (by anyone) copy of my agreement.

 

 

 

Am i correct in thinking they have already defaulted, and that they have actually acheived nothing by sending this to me ? There isnt a signature anywhere on it.

 

Any help from you superbrains would be marvellous.

 

Ross

 

If you haven't signed, or they can't provide a true copy, then how can they enforce it. As posted earlier they may as well claim your first born if you default, without your signiture it is meaningless.

[rhsymonds]

If you haven't signed, or they can't provide a true copy

 

Im not saying i never signed a copy, im just curious about the

As per regulation 3(2)(b) Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Document) Regulations 1983 this copy does not require signing.

part and if it actually means anything ? It sounds like they are saying 'this law doesnt apply to HSBC'.

[Peterbard]

Hi

 

|I am afraid they do not have to supply a signed copy of the orriginal executed agrement as the regulation they quote is correct.

However the agreement has to be a true copy in every other respect check it for the prescribed terms and also ensure it has the particulars on it are what you would expect on an agreement of the date you signed it, ie if signed before 2004 it should not contain Key finantial information also the penalties would be different if in doubt post it on here and someone will look at it for you.

 

Regards

 

Peter

[Pliny the Penuriosus]

Whilst they may be able to supply a non signature document for the purposes of the CCA a court CANNOT make an enforcement order WITHOUT there being a properly executed signed (by the debtor) agreement

[Jeff2000]

Whilst they may be able to supply a non signature document for the purposes of the CCA a court CANNOT make an enforcement order WITHOUT there being a properly executed signed (by the debtor) agreement

 

 

Hi,

 

 

Like we keep saying.

 

If they actually have a properly executed "agreement", then why not just send a copy when requested?

 

 

Jeff.

[Movingon]

Im not saying i never signed a copy, im just curious about the

 

Originally Posted by HSBC

As per regulation 3(2)(b) Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Document) Regulations 1983 this copy does not require signing.

 

 

part and if it actually means anything ? It sounds like they are saying 'this law doesnt apply to HSBC'.

 

Quoting that regulation is irrelevant to your request which was under s.77 of the CCA which states: "...shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement". This means a COPY of the agreement WITH SIGNATURES BY BOTH PARTIES which make it an EXECUTED agreement. The regulation they quote is utterly irrelevant to the request you made and they have DEFAULTED. It goes on to state that if the default continues for 30 days "...he commits an offence."

[InKogneeToh]

Hi

 

Sorry StoneLaughter, but Peter is correct.

 

Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents Regs 1983:

 

General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

3.-(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof.

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instru­ment or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

 

Regards, Pam

[Movingon]

Oh for crying out loud... then what have we been arguing about all this time?!

 

Jeez. I wish they'd put all the Law relating to one thing in ONE PLACE!! By the way - where did you find the Regulations? All I could find was 1988, 1989 and 2004 amendments to them...

[InKogneeToh]

Oh for crying out loud... then what have we been arguing about all this time?!

 

Jeez. I wish they'd put all the Law relating to one thing in ONE PLACE!! By the way - where did you find the Regulations? All I could find was 1988, 1989 and 2004 amendments to them...

 

Hi

 

For the purposes of 'copies' to be sent under various sections of the Act, signatures may be omitted (crazy, I know!!), BUT the creditor will still need to produce a signed copy in any enforcement proceedings.

 

If you PM me with your email address, I can send you a copy of the regs. as an attachment.

 

What makes me so cross is that for years we have been signing credit agreements that have had vague and woolly references in them to our numerous 'rights' and 'protections' under the CCA, but we have never had a clue as to what the CCA and it's many gobbledegook regs actually said!!

 

What would have been so difficult in producing a simple leaflet, containing the various rights and remedies available to us, in plain English and to be given out with every agreement?!?

 

Regards, Pam

[noomill060]

Early on in this thread the 1983 amendment was discovered to relate to something else and not related to whatever was being discussed at the time, oh dear this is so complicated.

 

I think it was alanfromderby who twigged it..

[jks2301]

hi

u know what these companys know that if they cant supply copies of the original credit agreement they aint got a leg to stand on !

my elderly mother was being harassed for a debt going back to the 70's and i wrote to them for her.

one week later she recd a letter saying no further correspondence

would be sent regarding the alleged debt and her account had been written off

asking for the agreement seems to be the quickest way to get these kind of people off your back cos none of them expect us to know about this and dont take care of them ,so if we all try to get our debts written off on this basis i say it serves them right

jks

[jks2301]

sorry i meant a signed copy

[InKogneeToh]

Early on in this thread the 1983 amendment was discovered to relate to something else and not related to whatever was being discussed at the time, oh dear this is so complicated.

 

I think it was alanfromderby who twigged it..

 

Hi

 

The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 isn't an amendment - it is one of the regulations referred to in the Act that clarifies certain sections of the primary legislation.

 

It has been argued that the part of the regulations quoted above does not apply to s77/78 requests but I'm afraid it does. Below is an extract from a letter from the OFT to another CAG member about 'copies' of agreements:

 

A ‘true copy’ of an agreement principally consists of the terms and conditions of the agreement and the statutory content of the agreement. The name, address and signature of the debtor do not have to be provided. Additionally, the creditor must supply the total sum paid under the agreement by the debtor; the total sum which has become payable under the agreement but remains unpaid; and the total sum which is to become payable under the agreement by the debtor (the latter two must include the various amounts comprised in that total sum and the date when each is/was due). However, the copy must be a copy. It need not be exact on immaterial points, but it cannot be a conjectured reconstruction. If the trader has no original copy, the trader will have difficulty showing that he has complied with the regulation by supplying a ‘true copy’, since nobody would know what was in the original. When the trader comes to enforce the debt in court, he needs to have a signed copy of the agreement in order to enforce. As the law stands currently he cannot otherwise.

 

 

Regards, Pam

[weaver440]

Hi again,

 

Right, just to update and seek advise. Sent request for repayment of charges of to British Gas Loans/ BOS on 7th March which was signed for on the 8th March, included in this was a request for the signed executed agreement and a cheque for £1.00 (did not need statements as already had them). Had nothing from them except for constant calls from thier collections dept most of which I ignored primarily because they were to my mobile whilst I was at work! Anyway, when I did eventually speak to someone they said they had no record of recieving this letter (funny how it was signed for and that the cheque had been cashed) Bless them!!!! Anyway sent my LBA of on the 12 April and to date have still had nothing except again constant phone calls. So am I correct in saying that if they have not complied within 12 days after the request was made they have defaulted under sections 77(1) and 78(1) of the consumer credit act and that being the case the debt is now unenforcible which means I can suspend payments? Not only that but now that 1 month has passed since the request was made they have also now commited a criminal offence? Could someone please confirm that I have this right and if I do could someone point me in the right direction for letters to trading standards and FSA, also has anyone written to their MP's or local papers? I am so incredibly angry about this, thier behaviour has been what you would expect when borrowing money from Loan Sharks, the harrasement has been unbelievable! Soonest responses would be much appreciated.:grin:

[joesoap]

My post 2170 refers. I've just received a letter from Wescot (dated 15/4 but the envelope is franked 25/4 first class) acknowledging my CCA request; that was made an awful long time ago! They've not mentioned my "out of time you are comitting an offence letter" which was sent on 5/4 and signed for 6/4. Wescot advises "your request has been noted and we will be in touch in due course. We confirm the account has been placed on hold. In touch in due course? Do time limits mean nothing to these clowns? What next I wonder?

 

Ian

[ncf355]

Weaver -

 

Its Section 78 for running credit (such as credit cards) and Section77 for fixed sum credit (such as a loan for a fixed amount)

 

For both, time limits are:

Time starts the day after receipt of the request, then -

12 working days = Default

Further one month (So 12 WORKING days + 30) = Offence

 

There has in the past been some debate about all this, but its generally agreed that this is a generous interpretation that can only be in our favour should we start litigation

 

Hope this helps

[Peterbard]

Early on in this thread the 1983 amendment was discovered to relate to something else and not related to whatever was being discussed at the time, oh dear this is so complicated.

 

I think it was alanfromderby who twigged it..

 

Hi

No it was way back in October last year when a creditor said they had complied due to the regulation in 1983/1557. It was Tam NO6 and myself who at first didn't believe it and then after much research and letters to the dti had to accept the truth.

 

Regards

Petr

[rhsymonds]

So am i correct in thinking that HSBC have complied with the request and thats the end of it ? Surely i have the right to ask for a signed copy ?

 

Thanks