Ebay Stolen Laptop

[JOHNMILLIGAN10091986]

I Recently Sold A Laptop On Ebay But I Sold It And Posted It Then Ebay Told Me Someone Has Used This Mans Account Without Him Knowing So Now I Have No Laptop And No Money To Show For It,ebay Are Not Helping Atol They Gave Me £10.40 For The Listing Price,should Ebay Compensate Me,please Help Me ,regards John

vbrep_register("818977")

[caro]

I've moved this thread to the General Consumer Issues forum as you may get more help there.

[CAGisforME]

This looks like the Classic Paypal "Sting" to me.

 

If you sent the laptop by post, what method did you use? Was it trackable? Was the laptop sent to the address on Paypal? Was the address marked as "confirmed"? and was the transaction marked as "eligible" for Seller Protection?

 

These questions will need to be answered before advising who has responsibility for this.

 

[JOHNMILLIGAN10091986]

i sent it just as a standard parcell.not trackable.i got an email from paypal saying payment has been confired and mk ajadi has been deducted £465 and that i will be credited when i send proof of postage so i did i sent my reciept from the post office bot got another email off of paypal saying that they needed a tracking no.but the next day he recived the laptop and he sent me a email saying he had recieved it and he will email paypal and notify them to release my money.so i sent a email to paypal and the said they havent been sending me any emails,ebay sent me an email saying someone managed to use someone elses ebay account to bid for this but the address i sent it to was the same for the papal account as the ebay account,thanks john

[CAGisforME]

I'm not being funny, but it would be a lot easier to understand your post if you put some punctuation and some paragraphs in.

 

Firstly, WHY ON EARTH would ANYONE send a £465 laptop to someone they don't know via Standard Parcels, with no parcel tracking and no insurance? Sorry to be harsh, but common sense has to come in to play at some point surely?

 

Paypal rules state clearly that all items must be sent by trackable means. (IE Recorded Delivery, Special Delivery, Courier Service etc) in order that you can prove DELIVERY, not to prove you actually posted it!

 

HOWEVER, despite all that.......

 

You have been well and truly scammed. This is a well known [problem].

 

The email you received from "paypal" telling you to post the item and email the tracking number before them releasing payment was a FAKE. Paypal do NOT send these types of emails. If this had been a normal paypal transaction you would have received an email telling you the money was IN your account, which you could then check, by logging in.

 

The person who has "stolen" your laptop is your buyer. Not Paypal and Not Ebay. Your "buyer".

 

You have an address that the item was sent to. Go to the police with all the emails and the address the laptop was sent to.

 

The "buyer" has hijacked an ebay account, changed the details, used a well known paypal [problem] to get an unsuspecting ebayer to send their expensive item.

 

This is a criminal act. Report it.

 

In the meantime, I respectfully suggest that you read up on Paypal's rules. Visit the Ebay Community Discussion Boards and read up on well known scams.

 

I also recommend getting some software that shows spam and dodgy emails for what they are, and I recommend getting a bit more of a suspicious nature in future, as this [problem] only works with the inexperienced user of paypal and ebay.

 

 

Sorry, that may not be what you wanted to hear.

[CAGisforME]

On checking with ebay, can you tell us when you sold this?

 

According to their records you haven't sold a laptop within the last 30 days. Did you sell it "off ebay"?

 

I really think that before you sell anything else, you should check out the rules with regards to Listing Policies, as you are lucky not have had your recent listings removed for breaking these rules, as you were selling "Informational Media/Pyramid schemes" and these are not allowed. If you are reported for these violations you risk losing your ebay account.

 

I also think you should spend more time reading about the possible pitfalls of accepting Paypal for high value items, and the rules that exist to protect you as a seller.

 

The community forums on ebay are the best place to start.

[meagain]

Firstly, WHY ON EARTH would ANYONE send a £465 laptop to someone they don't know via Standard Parcels, with no parcel tracking and no insurance? Sorry to be harsh, but common sense has to come in to play at some point surely?

 

A point to remember, if a buyer declines a trackable method when offered a choice (e.g. seller offers standard/1st class as well as SP), this does not absolve the seller from responsibility for delivery. The seller at all times remains liable for the goods until the buyer takes delivery. A couple of years ago, I sold some kit on a buyer-collects basis - in that case, I am responsible for the goods until the buyer has collected them.

 

Paypal rules state clearly that all items must be sent by trackable means.

 

My objection to this statement lies entirely in the word "clearly". There's also the issue of greater dishonesty: PayPal == eBay, so if PayPal do not allow standard postal service, eBay should not allow sellers to specify it as an available option.

[CAGisforME]

Megain

 

Your first point is absolutely correct, but in this case the seller wasn't actually paid by Paypal. He was sent a [problem] email telling him to post the item and enter the tracking number to get his funds released.

 

IF he had checked his paypal account, or with hindsight, had some more experience of selling using Paypal before selling something so expensive, he would have known that Paypal do not operate in this way.

 

Your Second Point:

 

If you read the Seller Protection blurb on Paypal I believe it IS clear that online trackable means of postage have to be used to comply with this policy. However I accept that not everyone takes the time to read these things.

 

The argument of ebay/paypal is valid. If I accept Paypal for an item I always insist that the item is sent trackable, however if I accept Bank Transfer or cheque I will send ordinary post.

 

Why do ebay allow the seller to chose the method? Because they allow the seller to chose the method they accept for payment AT THE MOMENT, although I suspect it will be PP only shortly, in which case I agree and they should then insist it's all trackable postage.

 

However, their stock line of "We are only a venue" will be rolled out yet again when this happens!

 

 

Meantime, JohnMilligan has been scammed and really needs to read up on the rules and to check out how PP works. If the laptop was sent to an address that is valid he should go to the police and report this criminal act. I'm still mystified as to how he sold a laptop on ebay, however their sold records for the past 30 days don't show a laptop being sold, just a few "get rich quick" schemes.

 

 

Perhaps John could come back and give us some more details?

[meagain]

The argument of ebay/paypal is valid. If I accept Paypal for an item I always insist that the item is sent trackable, however if I accept Bank Transfer or cheque I will send ordinary post.

 

Have you read anything I've said?

 

If you send ordinary post, the burden is still on YOU to prove delivery in the event of any dispute. Proof of posting is not proof of delivery.

[CAGisforME]

Yes thanks Meagain, I've read what you said. I even understood it!

 

I know that the burden is on the seller to deliver to the buyer.

 

I don't think I said it wasn't, having re-read my post I still can't see it.

 

However, what I can see is me, having tried to HELP THE OP, expressing a viewpoint and explaining how I do business on ebay. Paypal rules state that if i want to be covered by their Seller Protection then i have to send by means that are online trackable.

 

However, EBAY rules do not state that. Therefore if I am accepting payment from any other source than paypal I will, if asked, send the item by another means. This is my choice and I therefore bear the responsibility if the item isn't delivered. That is the law under the Distance Selling Regulations.

 

I'm not sure whether I am picking up the wrong signals here and I hope that I am.

 

Rather than assisting the OP on his problem with being scammed you seem more intent on picking me up on what I am saying. I don't believe I have stated anything that is factually incorrect. If I have then please feel free to point it out, as I cannot see it.

 

I'm also failing to see how I personally do business is of any relevance to the well-known [problem] that this unfortunate ebayer has fallen for.

 

Perhaps you can enlighten me further?

[meagain]

I know that the burden is on the seller to deliver to the buyer.

 

I don't think I said it wasn't, having re-read my post I still can't see it.

 

Forget the OP for the moment - you do realise that if you don't use a trackable method and someone tries to [problem] you by claiming non-delivery (which they can do regardless of payment method), you have no hope of defending, right?

[CAGisforME]

Yes. I believe that I already said that I understand this.

 

I said "This is my choice and I therefore bear the responsibility if the item isn't delivered. That is the law under the Distance Selling Regulations." Which I think explains my position. It is a risk that I CHOOSE to take, in certain circumstances. It is one that many business sellers choose to self insure against.

 

HOWEVER, do YOU understand that the new rules being implemented by ebay mean that ONLY Paypal payments will be covered by the Protection Sceme in the future and therefore a buyer will not be able to open a dispute for non-delivery etc UNLESS thay have paid with Paypal?

 

Check it here: May 2007

 

It's under "New and Improved Buyer Protection on Ebay" - (if you can call it an improvement!!!)

 

[CAGisforME]

Forget the OP for the moment

 

Not really in the spirit of the site is it?

 

 

JOHNMILLIGAN - have you reported this to the Police yet?

[meagain]

Yes. I believe that I already said that I understand this.

 

I said "This is my choice and I therefore bear the responsibility if the item isn't delivered. That is the law under the Distance Selling Regulations." Which I think explains my position. It is a risk that I CHOOSE to take, in certain circumstances. It is one that many business sellers choose to self insure against.

 

Fine. The important thing here is that other people don't get the impression that sending anything they sell on eBay via non-trackable means is by any stretch of the imagination a good idea. Recorded delivery is cheap enough.

 

It's under "New and Improved Buyer Protection on Ebay" - (if you can call it an improvement!!!)

 

I take your point, though perhaps it should really be called New and Improved Seller Protection

Of course, this change will at least discourage many of the [causing problems] buyers, though somewhat reinforces [causing problems] sellers (non-existent goods, bogus e-books, "picture of" sales, etc.)

[CAGisforME]

The important thing here is that other people don't get the impression that sending anything they sell on eBay via non-trackable means is by any stretch of the imagination a good idea. Recorded delivery is cheap enough.

 

I would correct you there. You obviously didn't comprehend the announcement from Ebay that I linked to in my post.

 

From June (that's tomorrow, btw) a buyer who has paid by Paypal will have increased cover, so therefore it's obviously imperative for sellers to ensure postage by means that are online trackable, or self-insure against any possible "Item Not Received" claims from customers who have PAID BY PAYPAL. There is no obligation, but it certainly makes sense to do one or the other.

 

However, should the buyer choose to pay by any other form of payment (Cheque, Nochex, Bank Transfer etc) then they are effectually giving up their right to dispute through Ebay. The seller can then CHOOSE to send non-trackable if the buyer wishes/requests it.

 

I happen to agree that Recorded Delivery is cheap enough. I also happen to dislike Paypal and it's fees and prefer the speed and convenience of being paid by Bank Transfer and therefore I'm disappointed that any recourse to the Buyer Protection Policy has now been taken away, giving my buyers less confidence in using this (perfectly safe) payment method.

 

I'm going to un-subscribe from this thread now.

 

I happen to dislike being picked up on every word I have said, when I subscribed to this thread to HELP THE OP.

 

I hope that if nothing else the advice I have given him will stop people thinking they have received hundreds of pounds and then sending their items off to a bogus buyer, never to see their item or their money ever again - I happen to think that's more important than arguing about the semantics of the Paypal & Ebay User Agreements.

 

That's what this thread was about. However I feel that you have hijacked it to make a point that was acknowledged early on, but for some reason felt the need to keep flogging the horse.

 

If I have trodden on your toes meagain then I can only apologise and leave you to it, as I simply cannot fathom any other reason as to why you won't simply accept that I know what I'm talking about.

[meagain]

However, should the buyer choose to pay by any other form of payment (Cheque, Nochex, Bank Transfer etc) then they are effectually giving up their right to dispute through Ebay. The seller can then CHOOSE to send non-trackable if the buyer wishes/requests it.

 

However, this is still not acceptable, since the seller is STILL liable until delivery. Lots of sellers do not understand this, and suggesting that any non-trackable means of delivery is acceptable even when both parties have agreed it is misguided.

 

If I have trodden on your toes meagain then I can only apologise and leave you to it, as I simply cannot fathom any other reason as to why you won't simply accept that I know what I'm talking about.

 

I am not and have not suggested you do not know what you are talking about. What I have suggested is that you may be unintentionally giving people the impression that if they are not accepting PayPal they can happily send things first class and assume all is well. What I have suggested is that regardless of what payment method you choose to accept, you should always send at least recorded. In that case, if anything goes wrong, you at least have an address to take things up at the other end, and you can be compensated for the loss of the package.

[CAGisforME]

Meagain

 

I'm sorry but you are like a dog with a bone.

 

 

 

Why not just try and help the OP, whose situation has NOTHING TO DO WITH PAYPAL!!! (As he was never paid through them in the first place - a point you seem to have missed - or are ignoring -entirely)

 

But, on with the nit-picking we go...........

 

You said:

However, this is still not acceptable, since the seller is STILL liable until delivery. Lots of sellers do not understand this, and suggesting that any non-trackable means of delivery is acceptable even when both parties have agreed it is misguided.

 

Tell that to Amazon, Play.com and a miriad of other online retailers who send by first/second class everyday.

 

It's a risk that SOME sellers take and others (like yourself evidently) choose not to take. In the grand scheme of things what percentage of buyers claim against the seller using Paypal. I think you'll find it negligible.

 

Presumably you also don't send to unconfirmed addresses when accepting Paypal either (as this could leave you open to a claim) Whereas I'd rather have a large customer base and make more profit.

 

Presumably you never send Jewellery or China anything other than Special Delivery because it's not covered for compensation unless it's sent that way, despite the fact that it often means smaller china items don't sell, due to the prohibitive cost of SD.

 

You also said:

In that case, if anything goes wrong, you at least have an address to take things up at the other end, and you can be compensated for the loss of the package.

 

With "ordinary" post you still have an address!

 

With "ordinary" post you can still claim compensation for lost packages. (10x face value of first class stamp), just the same as Recorded Delivery.

 

Only Special Delivery gives enhanced compensation and that is generally prohibitively expensive.

 

However, again it's possible to add extra compensation when needed.

 

You said:

What I have suggested is that you may be unintentionally giving people the impression that if they are not accepting PayPal they can happily send things first class and assume all is well.

 

No, I was crediting people reading this with some common sense. Whether they choose to send trackable or not to a buyer paying by means other than Paypal is a choice only the seller should make in consultation with their buyer.

 

 

 

You are trying to imply that the advice I have given is irresponsible, whereas I would suggest that you are both over-reacting to what is actually a very small risk and reducing your potential customer base, by putting off other customers with higher postage charges.

 

 

I guess mine is the "half full" approach.

 

Whereas yours is the "half empty".

 

[meagain]

Why not just try and help the OP, whose situation has NOTHING TO DO WITH PAYPAL!!!

 

I'm not aware of any rules we have that say that we are only allowed to help people out with the problems explicitly posted to the forum. I imagine lots of our most useful information would not be known otherwise. The OP has had about as much help as we can give - go to the police and take it from there, since there is nothing we, PayPal or eBay can do.

 

Tell that to Amazon, Play.com and a miriad of other online retailers who send by first/second class everyday.

 

Perhaps I will. They'll likely tell me it's not a problem, since if your copy of that book you ordered gets lost in the post, they've got a few thousand more left in stock that they can send out. They end up £10 out of pocket, they feel that with their millions in profit every year it's a reasonable price to pay to retain a customer. But then this isn't the High-Volume Online Retailer Action Group.

 

For those of our members who aren't multimillion multinationals, the ones for whom that £50 package going missing will make a considerable difference, who won't be able to replace lost items at their own cost, often mistakenly believing that because their buyer has chosen standard first class post that it's their own fault if anything goes wrong, this will be a major problem. the last thing they need to see is someone giving the impression that it's all well and good to send by standard postal service.

 

Presumably you also don't send to unconfirmed addresses when accepting Paypal either (as this could leave you open to a claim)

 

Like many people, I don't accept PayPal (I try and avoid using it to pay where I can) because I do not trust their policies. Either way, that is not my problem. In such a case, one of three things happens: it is delivered, and I get proof of delivery to defend anything that comes my way; it is not delivered, and comes back to me, and I have proof of non-delivery so can find out why and arrange redelivery; or it gets lost and I recover the cost from RM and get the refund cheque out. In all three cases, I will have lived up to the requirements and expectations of the law, and covered all bases in this respect - something I could not have done with a non-trackable delivery.

 

With "ordinary" post you still have an address!

 

With a trackable delivery, you have confirmation both that the address exists and that someone was there to take delivery. For small-value packages, the compensation provided by recorded (100x, not 10x, the price of a first-class stamp - £34 ATM) will do nicely, and costs about £1 total. Not a huge amount of money.

 

Only Special Delivery gives enhanced compensation and that is generally prohibitively expensive.

 

I think this statement is utter nonsense. Standard SD is up to £500, with the option of covering it up to £1000 or £2500. £4.85 is not a lot of money on an £800 package.

 

Whether they choose to send trackable or not to a buyer paying by means other than Paypal is a choice only the seller should make in consultation with their buyer.

 

... and frequently they make the decision under the mistaken impression that if the buyer chooses non-trackable it's no longer their problem. Your attitude is not helping - you may have taken adequate precautions, but do not assume that everyone else has.

 

You are trying to imply that the advice I have given is irresponsible

 

That would be because taken in isolation (as it will be by most), it is.

[obvious]

+1 CAGisforME

-1 meagain

 

[PPMAN159]

Not really in the spirit of the site is it?

 

 

JOHNMILLIGAN - have you reported this to the Police yet?

 

I think that John has gone away!!!

[meagain]

+1 CAGisforME

-1 meagain

 

 

If you want to go follow bogus advice, go ahead. Don't come crying to us when you lose out.

[PPMAN159]

Any one heard from John?

[PKea]

Any one heard from John?

 

Probably hiding out of the way during the arguement..lol

[PPMAN159]

Or is he on E Bay?

[meagain]

Hopefully, he has taken the advice offered to him right at the top of the thread, when it was made absolutely clear his only option is to go to the police.