Fred Bassett v Halifax

[Fred Bassett]

I'm just preparing a CCA request to the Halifax. I don't expect this to do much for me, but it's worth seeing if they can provide the correct documentation.

 

I've got a DMP through the CCCS and despite this, I keep getting letters from the Halifax telling me that my account is in arrears. What's really niggling is that they give me an 0870 number to reply on. It's easy enough to get around this - found a normal number on SAYNOTO0870.COM - Non-Geographical Alternative Telephone Numbers, but I can't be the only one to find this irritating.

 

So - here's a thought. I'm going to get my own 0870 number (you can get one for a tenner) and tell all of my creditors that this is my contact number from now on. That way, if they want to contact me, THEY can pay and I'll get a share of the profits. That will hack them off.

 

So, to the matter at hand. Halifax have not been the worst people to deal with - more of an irritation than a serious menace so far. I'll keep reading the posts, but If anybody can share their experiences then I'd be grateful.

 

I have a whole load of creditors and I am not in the financial position to take them all on at once but I can at least get the CCA letters sent off.

 

I'll let you know my progress.

 

What a wonderful site this is by the way. Whoever started it should be knighted.

 

Cheers.

 

Fred

[Fred Bassett]

I haven't done much on any of this for a while, mainly because I'm waiting to see what happens when it all goes to court.

 

However, I've got into a series of correspondence with the Halifax because they sent me a snottygram - usual threatening tactics when they want me to increase my CCCS payments. I pointed out to them that they have not fulfilled their legal obligation to send me a copy of my credit agreement - they've only sent me a copy of the original application. Among the statements they make are this one:

 

"... I would advise you that a copy of the signed credit agreement which is the original application form has already been sent to you. The terms and conditions of the account should be on the reverse of the application form, or alternatively these can be obtained from any branch. The application form represents your credit agreement and is signed by you."

 

In addition, they have addressed the letter to me AND MY WIFE. The credit card is/was in my name only and has nothing to do with her. Surely a breach of the data protection act there?

 

Any suggestions as to how I should tackle this one?

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[overflow]

HI Fred B.

 

Sorry cant help you Im afraid but perhaps if I give you a bump then a site helper or mod can come to the rescue.

 

Regards

[Fred Bassett]

Bump.

[overflow]

bump

[Fred Bassett]

I am mightily intrigued by the entries on my credit card statements which are all showing 3 different lots of interest - all of them simply called interest. Has anyone else experienced this and knows why it is?

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[Fred Bassett]

Hello to all.

 

Here is a copy of my so-called 'agreement' with Halifax:

 

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc40/FredBasset_2007/HalifaxApplication.jpg

 

As you can see it is an application form. It's not a very good copy, but this is what I was sent.

 

Today I received a letter from the wonderful Blair Oliver and Scott threatening to get a court judgment against me for not paying the Halifax.

 

Could somebody please point me in the direction of a good 'go forth and multiply' letter. Also, this has just been passed to BoS, previously Halifax had been dealing with it themselves.

 

You might be interested in this statement from an earlier letter: "...I would advise you that a copy of the signed credit agreement which is the original application form has already been sent to you."

 

I hate Blair Oliver and Scott with a vengeance and simply can't wait to get one over on them.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[Fred Bassett]

A couple of more things:

 

Should Halifax have notified me that they have passed this on to a DCA? (even though everyone knows BOS are in-house)?, so should I be asking for Deeds of Assignment or some such?

 

I know I've only had one letter, but I've had numerous 'phone calls, so should I be asking for a copy of BOS's complaints procedure?

 

Cheers.

 

Fred

[Fred Bassett]

Bump.

 

Would really appreciate some guidance on this folks as I would like to send a letter by Saturday at latest.

 

I've had nothing from Halifax to say that they've passed this on by the way, should they have done so?

 

Regards to all.

 

Fred

[sea-sidelady]

Yes you're right, it's defiantly an application form. You should've received a notice of Assignment from the Halifax that they were passing it onto BOS.

 

Send BOS the telephone harassment letter (presumably, it's BOS who're ringing you?)

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/37006-harassment-telephone-response-letter.html

 

I have some one coming in with the appropriate account in dispute letter for you.

[Fred Bassett]

I've cobbled this together from various other templates/threads. Will it do?

 

Blair Oliver and Scott Ltd.

PO Box 66

Rosyth

Fife

KY11 2WG

 

21st March 2008

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Your Reference: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY

 

I refer to your letter dated xxxx March which was delivered to me yesterday.

 

With reference to the above account, I request that you send me a true copy of this credit agreement before I will correspond further on this matter.

 

This is my right under the legislation contained within section 77 (1) and section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, and I am entitled to receive a copy of my credit agreement on request.

 

Your obligation also extends to providing me with a statement of account. I have already made this request of the Halifax and therefore feel no need to pay you the £1 statutory fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act. I attach a copy of my letter to them dated xxxxxxx 2007. To date, no such agreement has been supplied – just a copy of an application form which does not contain the prescribed terms. I understand that a copy of my credit agreement should have been supplied within 12 working days from the date of that letter and that the Halifax/yourselves are now in criminal default.

 

I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act, creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with a request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the Act.

 

Also, since you are a Debt Collection Agency, I would also ask that you supply a signed true copy of the executed deed of assignment for the above referenced agreement. This is an obligation, whether you are the original creditor or not, under section 189 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Non-compliance with my request is a criminal offence under the above Act and will result in a report being submitted to the relevant statutory authorities.

 

In summary, I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THIS DEBT AND THEREFORE REQUIRE YOU TO SUBSTANTIATE THIS BY PROVIDING THE FOLLOWING DOCUMENTATION BEFORE I CORRESPOND FURTHER :

 

1. True copy of original credit agreement

2. Statement of account

3. Copy of the executed deed of assignment from Halifax Bank and Blair Oliver Scott Ltd.

 

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

 

Take note at this stage, that any legal action you may contemplate will be both vigorously defended and contested.

 

Further to the above, please ensure that any contact by yourselves is made in writing only to the above address. Telephone calls and personal visits will not be accepted and viewed as harassment.

I look forward to hearing from you within the statutory time limit.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

Fred Bassett

[Curlyben]

To be honest as you have already CCA'd Halifax another is not needed.

 

Edit as needed

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

Dear Sir or Madam,

Account number: XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX

 

I must admit that I am rather bemused as to why this account has been passed to yourselves, as it is in dispute with the **original creditor/DCA** and has been since DATE 2007.

Not only is this a breach of OFT collection guidelines, but also in breach of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and Data Protection Act 1998

 

My last letter from **original creditor/DCA** was DATE and intimated that my complaint would be

resolved on **DATE**, this obviously hasn’t happened.

As **original creditor/DCA** are now in default of my Consumer Credit Act request, OFT Collection Guidelines, *Subject Access request and have also breached *s10 Data Protection Act request , I consider this account to be in SERIOUS DISPUTE.

 

The document that Halifax are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document.

 

As you are aware while my Consumer Credit Act request remains in default enforcement action is NOT permitted, under s127 this constitutes a complete defence at law.

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Now I would respectfully suggest that this account is returned to the **original creditor/DCA** for resolution of these defaults and breaches, as **New DCA** cannot lawfully pursue any enforcement activities.

 

If **New DCA** chooses to ignore my dispute and attempt enforcement, I will initiate legal action and file reports with the appropriate authorities, including, but not limited to, Trading Standards, Office of Fair Trading, Information Commissioners Office, Financial Ombudsman Service and possible court action.

 

After taking advice, I am of the opinion that any continued pursuit is in violation of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40 as well as breaching a number of the OFT Collection Guidelines

 

I hope that this will not be necessary and an acceptable solution can be accomplished.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

*- Delete as needed

Enjoy

[Fred Bassett]

To be honest as you have already CCA'd Halifax another is not needed.

 

Edit as needed

*- Delete as needed

Enjoy

 

Thanks Curlyben. I'll send this off tomorrow by recorded delivery. I've got a similar problem with Lloyds and Credit Security, so I hope you don't mind me using it for that as well.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[Fred Bassett]

Well I finally got a reply from Halifax - it was another copy of the application form that they've already sent. No covering letter, not even a compliment slip.

 

I think I'll just sink back into the jacuzzi and have the Butler bring me another bottle of Veuve .......

 

Regards to all.

 

Fred

[Fred Bassett]

Well I've had a number of letters from the Halifax/Blair Oliver and Scott and I'm getting fed up with them, so I was thinking of sending this one off in the style of one of their own:

 

“D Hood”

Blair Oliver and Scott Ltd.

PO Box 66

Rosyth

Fife

KY11 2WG

6th June 2008

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Your Reference: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY

 

Despite several attempts to get you to provide me with a properly-executed agreement in relation to this alleged debt, you have failed to respond to my requests.

Your client has strict instructions from me that you are not to attempt to contact me until said paperwork has been produced.

If I call one of your operators I will get harangued, sworn at and threatened, so I'd rather not if it's OK with you.

If you do not produce the necessary paperwork to prove that you are legally entitled to collect this alleged debt then you will have to resort to the following actions:

 

• Threatening to send one of your debt collectors to call at my address in which case:
  
  • I will not talk to him/her.
    
  • You will have knowingly broken the law because you are not entitled to call on me without prior appointment and I will not make one, furthermore I have already expressly forbidden you from doing so. This being the case, I will contact the police and report you for committing a criminal offence.
    

 

• Threatening to take court action to seek a judgment against me and make bloody idiots of yourselves by either
  

 

• not being able to produce the paperwork that I have already referred to and having your case thrown out of court or
  
• being able to produce the paperwork I have referred to but then having to explain to a Judge why it is that you have disregarded my many attempts to obtain the same.
  

It is in your best interest to stop harassing me as I have no intention of discussing anything with one of your helpline chimps.

Yours faithfully

 

 

 

Fred Bassett

 

 

 

Now this may not be a good idea, so I'll post it on here for now to see if I get any comments. Then I'll think again tomorrow.

 

 

 

Regards.

 

 

 

Fred

[Fred Bassett]

Well I sent Blair Oliver and Scott that letter, slightly amended, now I'm about to send this one to Halifax:

 

Laurena Gillespie

Customer Care Manager

Retail Bank Collections

Halifax Bank PLC

Trinity Road

Halifax

HX1 2RG

12th June 2008

Dear Ms. Gillespie,

Complaint Reference xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Account Number: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY

Thank you for your letter dated 28th May 2008.

I wish now to make a formal complaint against Halifax and Blair Oliver Scott.

This is the chain of events that has lead to where we are now:

26th April 2007

Formal Notice issued by Halifax regarding the account being in arrears. This despite the fact that the account was being paid under a debt management plan with the Consumer Credit Counselling Service.

11 May 2007

Letter from me requesting information under the terms of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

1st June 2007

Letter from me to remind you of your obligations under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

26th July 2007

Reply from Halifax enclosing a ‘copy of the application form as you requested’. The attached document is exactly that; an application form, not an agreement. It does not contain the required terms, is a pre-contractual document and is therefore not a properly-executed credit card agreement.

14th August 2007

Letter from Halifax confirming that the information I had requested ‘Has now been ordered’.

24th August 2007

Default notice from Halifax – presumably in revenge for my temerity in daring to ask for a copy of my credit card agreement. This letter also contained the implicit threat to issue legal proceedings and pass the matter to a debt collection agency.

4th September 2007

Letter from me to Halifax reminding you of your legal obligations.

12th September 2007

Letter from Halifax informing me in smooth, loving tones, how eager you were to resolve my concerns ‘as quickly as possible and that you had asked a ‘Customer Care Manager to investigate my complaints’.

13th September 2007

Letter from Halifax ‘Customer Care Manager’ who, having spent presumably very little time investigating my complaints, then proceeded to commit a criminal offence under the Data Protection Act 1998 by addressing her reply to me and my Wife who has never had anything to do with this account. My Wife opened this letter and was extremely puzzled by it because she had been previously unaware of this matter.

This Halifax employee advised that ‘… a copy of the signed credit agreement which is the original application form has already been sent to you.’

18th October 2007

Letter from Halifax informing me that interest would be reinstated on this account, despite this still being paid by way of a debt management plan with the CCCS.

12th March 2008

Letter from me complaining to you about your lack of response to my previous requests.

13th March 2008

Final Notice Letter from Blair Oliver and Scott.

21st March 2008

Letter from me to Blair Oliver and Scott expressing my bemusement as to why this matter had been passed to them without it being properly resolved by Halifax.

25th March 2008

Letter from Blair Oliver and Scott threatening to: ‘Send Doorstep Collectors’, ‘Take Court Action’ and obtain a ‘Charging Order’ on my property.

25th March 2008

Letter from me to Blair Oliver and Scott in response to their letter – advising them that I will only correspond in writing and expressly forbidding them to visit my property without my prior permission – permission that I would refuse.

24th April 2008

Copy of application form sent from Halifax – no covering note or letter attached. This is the same document that was previously sent to me on 26th July 2007.

28th May 2008

Letter from Halifax responding to my letter dated 21st March. In this letter you confirm that ‘… a copy of the agreement has been requested and will be forwarded to you in due course under separate cover.’

30th May 2008

Letter from Blair Oliver and Scott ‘Requiring Your Action’ and making the same threats as had been previously made in their letter to me dated 25th March 2008.

6th June 2008

Letter to Blair Oliver and Scott from me reminding them of their legal obligations and essentially pointing out the idiocy of the course of action they have chosen to follow.

In addition to all of the above, I have received numerous telephone calls from Halifax and Blair Oliver and Scott despite my previous requests to conduct this matter in writing only.

I would like you to answer the following questions:

 

• Why did Halifax deliberately break the law in relation to the Data Protection Act 1998 by informing my Wife of this matter? This was something she was previously unaware of and it caused me enormous difficulty in my personal life. I would remind you that under the terms of this act, a data subject may prevent the use of information if it would be likely to cause them distress. You caused me a great deal of distress in this matter and as this is a criminal offence I am still giving serious consideration to reporting this to the police and/or the Information Commissioner. This breach of the law could cost you an UNLIMITED FINE under the terms of this act.
  
• Why do Blair Oliver and Scott continue to plague me with telephone calls when I have requested that this matter be dealt with only in writing?
  
• Why do you tell me in your letter dated 28th May 2008 that you have requested a copy of the agreement when you had already told me in your letter dated 13th September 2007 that ‘… a copy of the signed credit agreement which is the original application form has already been sent to you.’?
  

You have confirmed that what you have sent me you believe to be a true copy of the credit agreement that exists in relation to this account. As you have sent this document in response to my requests under Section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, then this statement by you is now binding on you as per section 172 of the Act.

 

Section 172 states:

 

172 Statements by creditor or owner to be binding (1) A statement by a creditor or owner is binding on him if given under— section 77(1), section 78(1), section 79(1), section 97(1), section 107(1)©, section 108(1)©, or section 109(1)©. THIS MEANS THAT THE DOCUMENT YOU HAVE SENT IS THE ONLY DOCUMENT YOU MAY NOW RELY ON IN ANY ATTEMPT AT ENFORCING THIS ALLEGED DEBT. Any further documentation you may present is irrelevant as you did not provide it in response to my lawful request.

 

This debt is completely unenforceable under Section 127 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. The CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974 is clear on what agreements must contain in order to be enforceable, even in court. At the very least, an agreement must contain the following within the signature document to be enforceable, even in court:

 

• A credit limit or a statement as to how this will be determined.
  
• An APR.
  
• A schedule of repayments.
  

These are the prescribed terms as required by the Act and subsequent Regulations. There are also many other things, which are called required terms, that should be in an agreement. These include:

 

• Details of default charges.
  
• Statements of protection for customers.
  

The agreement you have sent me does not include all of the information needed to make it enforceable, and therefore it is completely unenforceable under Section 127 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

If you deny that the document you have sent me fail to comply with the Consumer Credit Act 1974. In that case, given the facts I have outlined above, perhaps you could direct me to all of the prescribed and required terms in the agreement you have sent me. I think you will find that they are not there.

 

Once you have confirmed for yourself that they are not there, perhaps you would be so kind as to point me in the direction of the relevant legislation that allows you to enforce an agreement that is clearly unenforceable under Section 127. Again, I think you will find that this legislation does not exist.

 

The case law in these matters is clear. The case of Wilson and others v. Secretary of State for Trade and Industry makes it clear that if a creditor does not have the correct paperwork to comply with the Consumer Credit Act 1974, then they cannot expect to benefit from this. Under these circumstances, the creditor loses all rights within the agreement, including the right to money already given out.

 

In light of all of this information I have given you, I do not see how you could consider this agreement is enforceable. Should you wish to try and construct a case that has a basis in law then I would be most interested to read it. If you cannot construct such a case, I expect you to confirm within 21 days that all collections activity on this account will cease.

 

I look forward to your response to this.

Yours faithfully

Fred Bassett

 

 

 

I reckon this one ought to put the cat among the pigeons but I won't hold my breath.

 

Regards to all.

 

 

 

Fred

[Helmetfire]

I can't wait to see what they make of that:D

[reallymadwoman]

Wonderful!!!!

[Fred Bassett]

There's something weird going on here - I definitely posted a thread earlier on and I actually read it once I'd posted, but now it's disappeared. Anyway, it's not important.

 

I just had a call from my friends at Blair Oliver and Scott. This time I answered it. The lady who rang asked for me, told me who she was and then asked me to confirm, for security purposes, the first line of my address and post code. I just said "no" and she replied "OK, that's lovely, thank you very much"!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That bloody Stella Artois!.

 

Fred

[Fred Bassett]

I've decided to knock up a template letter for my correspondence with Blair Oliver and Scott as I'm getting so many letters from them in relation to 2 different accounts.

 

I wonder if they'll see the irony.

 

Fred

 

[Fred Bassett]

Ah ha! Well I've seen Blair Oliver and Scott off because this one has now been passed to Moorcroft. I've had no notification of this, but Moorcroft have been instructed by Halifax so I presume they are just collecting (or trying to) rather than having bought it.

 

I've not had the pleasure of dealing with Moorcroft before, so any pointers would be useful. Needless to say, they won't be getting a penny without the properly-executed agreement. I'll fire off the 'I'm bemused' letter tomorrow. I'm also going to take this as far as I can through the official channels now because Halifax have not answered my complaint. That's a bit naughtly don't you think?

 

Regards to all.

 

Fred

[daviet1976]

As a note Fred, if they do not deal with your complaint in the agreed manner (ie as per their complaints procedure) they are in breach of FSA guidelines. You can complain to the FSA who

will step in to resolve your complaint.

[Fred Bassett]

As a note Fred, if they do not deal with your complaint in the agreed manner (ie as per their complaints procedure) they are in breach of FSA guidelines. You can complain to the FSA who

will step in to resolve your complaint.

 

Thanks Daviet. They won't deal with my complaint properly because to do so they would have to accept that they don't have an enforceable agreement. Passing it on to Moorcroft is a tacit admittance of this in my view.

 

I will now take this as far as I can without actually going to court though.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[daviet1976]

... and I wish you the best of fun in doing so!

[Fred Bassett]

Well I've knocked up the usual letter to Moorcroft and will send it recorded delivery. I've also decided to take Halifax to task. They can't just escape their responsiblities by passing this on to debt collectors so I've also put together this one:

 

Laurena Gillespie

Customer Care Manager

Retail Bank Collections

Halifax Bank PLC

Trinity Road

Halifax

HX1 2RG

 

27th June 2008

 

Dear Ms. Gillespie,

Complaint Reference xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Account Number: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

I refer to previous correspondence and in particular to my letter dated 12th June 2008.

 

I see that you have decided to deal with my complaint not in a rational or reasonable manner but instead by passing this account on to Moorcroft Debt Recovery.

 

At this point let me assure you of several things:

 

 

• My complaint still stands and I demand an answer to the questions posed in my letter dated 12th June 2008.
  
• Moorcroft will be no more successful in their pursuit of me than were Blair Oliver and Scott.
  
• I now hold you PERSONALLY responsible for the actions of Moorcroft Debt Recovery and it will be you PERSONALLY that I will be naming in my complaints to the Office of Fair Trading, the Financial Services Ombudsman, Trading Standards, the Information Commissioner and if necessary, the police.
  

 

In my opinion, you/Halifax have once again, broken the law and OFT guidelines by passing on this account to Moorcroft in that not only is this a breach of OFT collection guidelines, but also a breach of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and Data Protection Act 1998. Halifax and its employees don’t seem to pay much regard to the Data Protection Act do they?

 

I intend to pursue this with the utmost vigour. Have you really thought about what will happen if it is found that you have broken the law on behalf of your employer? I think you will find that they will hang you out to dry, so If I were in your shoes I would seriously consider my position.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Fred Bassett