Allowed Or Not

[webbscatering]

just to add they only have one lame excuse to use and thats the offset rule which applies to arrears, so I dont think they got much to argue.

[Advoc8]

They might well. It would also be helpful if you could somehow estimate what losses the reduced level of capital you now have available will cause you.

 

There's also a remedy of specific performance that the court can impose if the bank's broken its contract with you by the way it's taken the money but this would really need a separate claim and proper analysis of the terms of the contract before you took them to court on this (as it's not always a viable option) but you could mention that you will seek an order for specific performance if they don't restore the position.

 

I have my doubts about the offset rule applying to loan accounts full stop (arrears or no arrears) but of course you're being perfectly reasonable by saying that you're of course willing to accept that the arrears had to be cleared, aren't you?

[webbscatering]

well yes, like i said before in normal circumstances I would have took it on the chin and let it go, so if i owe money i will always pay, not always on time but eventually you did. It is proven that they can take your money under the offset rule and to be honest a member of parliment should look into this more as this could cause severe hardship to a number of people.

 

At this present time there is a downturn in the hospitality trade, with two mortgage rate increases so the working capital will be used to the max within a four week period before the summer time begins. looking at my current situation we are currently running at a weekly loss of about 500 per week, which is recoverable over the summer periods but any higher weekly losses put a great strain on the business. So i would say they took about 6 weeks working capital

[Advoc8]

So what real effect will the loss of this 6 weeks capital money have on you? Is it likely, for example, to mean that you'll need to borrow to keep going? If so how much?

 

That's the figure you need to get a handle on to use as leverage, so you could say that because they took some of your capital you will needed to borrow £x to get you through to the summer. This will cost you £y in interest, arrangement fees etc plus any other knock-on effects of not having the money that was taken. Realistically this is what you could base a court claim on - the actual cost to you of them having broken the contract, bearing in mind the loan was due to be repaid at some point in time.

[gizmo111]

Hi Zooman, Im a sole trader and i only took the unsecured loan out.

 

Was it a business or persoanl loan

[LEECHTHEBREACH]

O.K Webbs I,me back.

Firstly I did that letter for you very quickly last night and I would still send a similar letter with some of Advocs excellent input added.

You can sort out the exact Law parts later because what it will do is provoke dialogue which is what you want urgently.

If you want me to go through the the whole scenario in detail because I have only quicly read the posts, I will draft a further more accurate letter using some of Advocs advice etc otherwise you draft one and we,ll all throw our 2 penny worth in the ring!!!!

Leech

[webbscatering]

Was it a business or persoanl loan

 

Its a business loan

[webbscatering]

O.K Webbs I,me back.

Firstly I did that letter for you very quickly last night and I would still send a similar letter with some of Advocs excellent input added.

You can sort out the exact Law parts later because what it will do is provoke dialogue which is what you want urgently.

If you want me to go through the the whole scenario in detail because I have only quicly read the posts, I will draft a further more accurate letter using some of Advocs advice etc otherwise you draft one and we,ll all throw our 2 penny worth in the ring!!!!

Leech

 

If you would like to draught a letter for me again that would help loads, Adco8 has been an absolute pillar and has brought in some interesting facts and with your input we should be able to back the banks into a corner or a certain creek without a paddle! But more importantly set a strong bench mark for those who suffer the same fate as mine.

[gizmo111]

Webbs I have sent you a PM

[Advoc8]

I think before any letters are drafted Webbs needs to decide exactly what outcome he wants to aim for. There are a number of issues here and I also don't think we've all the relevant facts (not anyone's fault, just an issue with dealing with matters over the internet).

 

For instance the letter that was sent was a CCA 1974 s.89 default letter but it would appear that the loan agreement was of a type not regulated by the CCA. This may or may not open up other possibilities or complications but without further facts it's difficult to be sure.

 

As I say, draft any letter to facilitate the desired outcome. Think tactically about this rather than emotionally and don't go into battle unprepared.

[webbscatering]

For clarity, we seem to have enough amunition to make them run for cover, when they surrender I want the money back into the account thats the crux of it. But if they dont surrender thats where tactically we can move towards court armed facts and figures for damages. Firstly lets get their attention with a letter with the info we have then as we all know they have a proven record of refusing, and wait for their reply so we can counteract, How does that sound?

[Advoc8]

Just for further clarity this is the chronology:

 

Early '07            2 loan payments missed
15 March '07         Bank charges refunded - separate account to loan
15 March '07         Default letter issued for incorrect amount giving debtor
                    until 02/04/07 to pay
16 March '07         Full amount of loan taken without consent.

 

This needs a bit of thinking about. I'll be back later.

 

Although I don't normally suggest it, it might be worth trying to see someone at the bank about this before starting with the letters. It could just all be a big mistake that can be rectified fairly amicably. Typically though these things always happen on Fridays so you're left to stew all weekend...

[LEECHTHEBREACH]

I certainly take in what you are saying Advoc, and wise words maketh a man.

Is there any particular reason (or fact) you are saying that the loan agreement is not a type regulated by the CCA ?

Herewith a summary of what you have advised

The sums paid into the current account are appropriated by the customer to that account, and cannot be used by the bank in discharge of the loan account without the consent of the customer. No customer could otherwise have any security in drawing a cheque on his current account if he had a loan account greater than his credit balance on current account.

and

The other crucial thing to bear in mind are any terms in the loan agreement that might purport to allow them to do this as it's something else they can hide behind. This needs checking

I think Webbs would want this to happen

 

You want your loan 'reinstating' with the debit balance it would have at this point in time if there were no arrears, to be repaid at the amount per month and for the number of months it had left to run prior to their action.

You want the current account crediting with the amount they took to pay off the loan minus the amount of any arrears.

I wonder if what's needed is a two-pronged approach saying you want the position reversed or you'll take action to recover the damages you'll suffer (to be assessed somehow - have a think if you can estimate what it will cost you) AND complain to the ombudsmen. Put in a letter addressed to the appropriate department and give them a couple of weeks then follow up.

also

 

There's also a remedy of specific performance that the court can impose if the bank's broken its contract with you by the way it's taken the money but this would really need a separate claim and proper analysis of the terms of the contract before you took them to court on this (as it's not always a viable option) but you could mention that you will seek an order for specific performance if they don't restore the position

and

I have my doubts about the offset rule applying to loan accounts full stop (arrears or no arrears) but of course you're being perfectly reasonable by saying that you're of course willing to accept that the arrears had to be cleared, aren't you?

So what real effect will the loss of this 6 weeks capital money have on you? Is it likely, for example, to mean that you'll need to borrow to keep going? If so how much?

 

I think you have covered this exceedingly well here, plenty of ammo, it just needs stringing together............

Leech

 

 

 

 

[webbscatering]

Yes that about right

[Advoc8]

I certainly take in what you are saying Advoc, and wise words maketh a man.

Is there any particular reason (or fact) you are saying that the loan agreement is not a type regulated by the CCA ?

 

Primarily because it's a business loan provided (I assume) for business purposes. There's actually an amendment to the CCA that's not in force yet that deals explicitly with this kind of situation, but again with the current situation more facts are needed.

 

I actually think it would be more relevant if the bank had only threatened the action, as it is the money's gone and it's getting matters resolved that's the more important.

[webbscatering]

You want your loan 'reinstating' with the debit balance it would have at this point in time if there were no arrears, to be repaid at the amount per month and for the number of months it had left to run prior to their action.

 

This Is Correct

[webbscatering]

We really need a copy of the loan agreement, before we make the threats looks like what were missing this, this could be a chink in our armoury.

[Advoc8]

Of specific interest are:

 

1. Was the loan sold as one regulated under the CCA 1974?

 

2. What were the terms in the contract relating to breaches for non-payment?

 

3. Were there any terms relating to them calling in the loan if you were in breach?

 

Probably other queries too but those are the ones that immediately spring to mind.

[webbscatering]

[/color]

 

Primarily because it's a business loan provided (I assume) for business purposes. There's actually an amendment to the CCA that's not in force yet that deals explicitly with this kind of situation, but again with the current situation more facts are needed.

 

I actually think it would be more relevant if the bank had only threatened the action, as it is the money's gone and it's getting matters resolved that's the more important.

 

Why would the bank quote CCA if this particular loan is not covered by them?

[webbscatering]

reason being, the banks arn't that stupid that they would make a mistake such as that

[Advoc8]

reason being, the banks arn't that stupid that they would make a mistake such as that

 

Or stupid enough to put the wrong figure in the letter, or take the whole amount when they shouldn't?

 

As I say, I don't think the CCA issue is that significant, it's just that if the loan isn't covered the letter is yet more evidence of their incompetence.

[webbscatering]

Fair enough, I was thinking the same about their incompetance, at least were all singing from the same song sheet.

[LEECHTHEBREACH]

Ok chaps back after watching gp practice, glad our new brit is 4th on the grid!

Am also glad that my opening exorcet letter has provoked a glorious discussion, which is what this site is all about.

Advoc I appreciate you most thorough input and have provided Webbs with enough info to use against Lloyds most extrordinary behaviour.

Remember Webbs what info you need to obtain.

Best of luck Webbs and let us know how you get on.

Leech

[webbscatering]

Thanks leech, watching the rugby...crap!!, anyway England only need a mere 57points to win.

 

Keep In touch

[webbscatering]

advocate, on friday i left a message with a bemused PA. for the business manager to call me, i reckon she may call on monday, if she does shall i inform her of her wrong doings with the hope she may yield or refuse her call and proceed with our correspondences?, If I take too long to reply this is I am in work so Imflitting from bar to office.