Horizon ANPR PCN - Gallagher Retail Park, Bradford

[bradfordlad]

Hi all, 

 

PCN received today.   

Can't believe they allegedly issued it on 4th April but it didn't arrive till 19th. 

Their oh-so- generous discount only applies if it's paid within 14 days of issue - so conveniently- YESTERDAY! 

 

Questions answered below.

 

Please answer the following questions.

 

1 Date of the infringement 29th March 2023

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] 4th April 2023

 

3 Date received Today - 19th April 2023
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] NO
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Yes
 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] No
 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up n/a
 

7 Who is the parking company? HORIZON PARKING LTD

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] Gallagher Retail Park, Thornbury, Bradford
 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under.

Mentions POPLA and also BPA 
 

Appreciate your expert guidance - thank you! 

 

 

2023-04-04 Horizon PCN - offence 2023-03-29.pdf

[bradfordlad]

Just noticed a minor detail - the site is actually called Gallagher LEISURE Park, not retail as they state in the "notice".    May be irrelevant but worth pointing out

[Nicky Boy]

Hi Bradford Lad,

 

First thing is DO NOT APPEAL.

 

Also just sit tight and ignore anything the fleecers send until / unless you get a letter of claim.

If in any doubt about letters received, just upload and the guys will comment.

 

Others will probably chime in with comments about their initial invoice being totally pants.

[bradfordlad]

Cheers Nicky Boy, 

 

Also just noticed how badly worded it is. "Registered Keeper details requested from DVLA though the reasonable cause criteria....."  "Please inform us within 28 days if you were not the keeper/driver on the day in question".   If after 28 days we've not received payment, we have the right to recover the charge FROM THE DRIVER" - good luck with that then, I have no idea who the driver was......ahem!!

[Nicky Boy]

Good,

You're looking carefully!

 

"Gallagher Retail Park" is also very relevant.

 

With a quick Google, I've found Gallagher Retail Parks in ...

Coventry

Wednesbury

Scunthorpe

Huddersfield

Cheltenham

 

There's no other helpful information on their duff paperwork to narrow it down!

 

And if it's actually called something else "Gallagher LEISURE Park"... Well, 'nuff said!

Edited April 19, 2023 by Nicky Boy
typo

[bradfordlad]

You'd think they'd get the easy bit right!!   Look at the building signage! 

Not sure the map link worked!! 

 

Does this: 53.80056275788841, -1.7033408223358242

Edited April 19, 2023 by bradfordlad

[Nicky Boy]

Did you go to Odeon Cinema?

 

Look at the review top of page.

Trip Advisor Link...

Might be worth a try.

 

https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g186408-d7645116-r883826337-Odeon_Leeds_Bradford-Bradford_West_Yorkshire_England.html

Edited April 19, 2023 by Nicky Boy

[bradfordlad]

Actually no, I believe "the driver" was at the gym    Annoying thing is, at the gym there's an ipad to put your reg in to get 3hrs free, but I remember a few weeks ago it had frozen and me & this other guy couldn't use it.  Can't say for definite it was the day in question though. 

 

I know what you mean about the cinema reviews though, it's crazy isn't it - 45 minutes free to go watch a film??! 

[Nicky Boy]

Might be worth a complaint email to the Gym to get it cancelled...

 

Sometimes works.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Nicky Boy

[bradfordlad]

I've asked the gym - worth 2 lines of an email I guess!

[bradfordlad]

Morning all, bumping this up for any further comments about the invoice received. 

 

Issues around the name of the retail park being wrong, date of breach/issue/receipt concerns, and no mention of PoF Act. 

 

Any other advice guys?

 

Many thanks

[Nicky Boy]

Not really,

as already said, just sit and collect the inevitable stream of "scary" letters.

Unless you get a letter of claim.

 

No need to create work for yourself "just in case" it goes further.

 

Only thing I might suggest that shouldn't put you out...

"The driver" is presumably a regular at the gym, so good quality pics of some of the signage in the car park (with readable text) may be useful. Especially if some signs are different to others.

Don't forget the entrance sign... It has to be pretty specific.

(It would be brilliant if there's no mention of "registering" for an extended stay at the gym).

 

Also pics of the signage / registration tablet in the gym.

 

Have you had any joy on emailing the gym asking them to cancel the PCN?

[Bazooka Boo]

Their invoice isn't PoFA compliant so unless they know the name of the driver they're stuffed.

 

As the silly little missive states that the driver is liable for their inflated unicorn tax, then unless you give them the drivers name, there is diddly they can do.

 

[lookinforinfo]

As Bazooka Boo said the PCN is not compliant which means that only the driver is liable for the charge since non compliance means that the rogues cannot transfer the charge to the keeper.

 

Important therefore not to reveal who was driving. Something like "I parked the car ...." instead of  "the driver parked the car..." is a dead giveaway as to who was driving. 

 

They can't even bother to say that they are the creditor. And as Nicky Boy rightly said they have not identified the car park .

 

In the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4 S( [2][a] it states the Notice must"

(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;"

 

Well it certainly has not specified the relevant land where the car was parked. Nor have they got the period of parking right either.

 

It cannot be right that driving through the entrance to a parking spot and then later leaving the parking place and driving to the exit could be considered as parking .

 

Another thing. Is the allowed time for parking there 30 minutes or one hour? If it is one hour then they should have given you ten minutes grace period. 

 

[bradfordlad]

Thanks Lookingforinfo,  the free parking is actually 45 minutes, but it's interesting what you said about enteri g the car park and leaving the car park - would they need to prove the vehicle was PARKED? 

 

I'll ignore all their paperwork for now then and as you rightly say, if and when the time comes I will only refer to "the driver..." 

 

Just out of curiosity (always looking to learn!), Just what is it that makes the PCN non-compliant? And what is it not compliant with? 

 

Many thanks all for your help with this! 

[Nicky Boy]

Look up POFA 2012.

It's statutory requirements.

The fleecers can normally only sue the driver of the vehicle (difficult if you don't know the driver's details), but POFA allows them to sue the keeper if they jump through the various statutory hoops.

One such hoop is that the PCN must follow a specific format.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Nicky Boy

[lookinforinfo]

Parking on private land is governed by the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. If the rogues who operate in  private parking want to be able to transfer the charge from the driver to the keeper when an alleged breach of the Act has occurred, they need to comply with the Act. When they don't [and it happens quite frequently] they cannot pursue the keeper for the debt-only the driver is now liable.

 

Doesn't stop the rogues since they assume that the driver and the keeper are the same person and carry on chasing the keeper.The good news is that should it go to Court, Judges do not accept that the driver and keeper are the same person. Anyone who has a valid motor insurance policy is able to drive your car.

 

You are allowed a ten minute minimum grace  period at the end of your parking . You also have a five minute minimum  Consideration  period at the start of your parking to allow you time to look at the signs and to decide whether you want to park there after reading the terms of the car park.  Both the IPC and the new Government regulations, which have been temporarily suspended, say that the consideration period should not be included in the parking period. The BPA on the other hand disagree and insist that once you have remained in the car park after the five minutes, that time should be included in the parking period. I guess they take the view that they should not observe the Law when they have a chance of making  money.

 

If the DVLA had any cojones you would have thought that they would at least have queried the discrepancy between the BPA and the other two parties. Probably don't even know about it despite claiming the robustness of their systems. Yeah right.

 

So you need to find an extra 5 minutes or a Judge who believes that the BPA Code of practice does not comply with the regulations.I don't think the latter is out of the question.

[bradfordlad]

So in simple terms, they didn't mention the POFA in their invoice, which means they can't pursue the keeper, only the driver.  But as they don't/won't know who the driver is then they've shot themselves in the foot?

 

Do I now just ignore all corres. until a Claim Letter arrives? 

 

Thanks again all!

[Nicky Boy]

IF! A letter of claim ever arrives...

Edited April 23, 2023 by Nicky Boy

[lookinforinfo]

As they only use ANPR cameras in this car park they have n o idea what occurs inside the car park. Are most of the bays full: is it difficult to get out of the car park when you leave because the main road is very busy; did your son drive in and your wife drive out-they haven't a clue. 

[FTMDave]

Any update here?  I ask as we have a new Cagger who is being hassled by the Horizon jokers.

[bradfordlad]

Hi FTMDave, 

Not really - I received the attached letter on 12th July, giving me 7 days.   I've included the checklist on page 3 as it made me laugh out loud.  Clearly I owe them money, their checklist says I do! 

I ignored it obviously, then I received exactly the same letter dated 27th July, giving me...yes, 7 days. 

Sorry I can't be more help!  

Invoice 12 July.pdf

Edited August 14, 2023 by bradfordlad

[FTMDave]

On the contrary, that is a great help.

It confirms that Horizon are up to their usual antics, lots of "scary" letters but not much actual doing court.

[bradfordlad]

Wish the same could be said on my other PCN thread!