Fraud, will Paypal react in time?????

[metalrat]

Blacksheep I get the impression you are accepting his behaviour as an appropriate way to conduct ebay trading.

If this is so then I hope you won't frown on me if I suggest recouping my losses the same way?

Is it legal? You tell me?

[blacksheep1979]

I think its absolutely despicable behaviour but am trying to play devils advocate here and give you an honest answer without trying to give you blind hope. Ebay is one of the places where the phrase caveat emptor holds more weight than almost anywhere else. Its a case of don't buy if they have poor feedback, don't buy if they have bad english, don't buy if they have no feedback, reread the listing word for word at least 20000 times etc.

 

If you saw this in a shop and could have handled the goods then you would have known instantly that £400 (or however much it was) was a bit ott for a picture. However they have clearly stated that they were selling a picture so the legal side of things is kind of covered. Unless you have an email clearly stating that the item is a camera and you have his address then you can't take any legal action to reclaim the money and even then emails can easily be forged and so a judge may not agree with you. Best play as I stated before is to say that he sent the wrong item, but then he has the option of just sending a new picture.

 

Really sorry about this - don't condone it at all, just trying to be realistic here.

[Gruffle Gaw]

[quote=blacksheep1979;441231Best play as I stated before is to say that he sent the wrong item, but then he has the option of just sending a new picture.

 

Really sorry about this - don't condone it at all, just trying to be realistic here.

 

Yep, don't shoot the messenger.

 

While what he did is clearly despicable, I'm racking my brains to think of any legal course of action you might have.

 

Blacksheep, are you sure he has the option of sending a replacement rather than issuing a refund? I'm wondering if he has made any indication of how quickly he will get the item to you in your listing. If so, you may be able to argue that you needed the item for a certain date (friend's birthday?) and by not supplying the correct item to you by the date agreed he has broken the terms of your implied contract. Therefore, you require a refund.

 

Has anyone got any idea whether this is a feasible way to approach this? Also, does the seller definitely have the option to choose between replacement and refund or is that the buyer's choice if the wrong item is supplied, setting aside the time issue?

[blacksheep1979]

I'm sure if he mails another 'correct' one out he can then reply to the dispute that the buyer now has the correct item. Only this time if he sends it unrecorded don't acknowledge receipt.

[shywazz]

sorry to read this thread, how did things go with PP reading the thread, it does look like a [problem], at the mo, there all loads on E>BAY , by the way i note you never did give ur feed back to him, so i,m guessing things got sorted?

[Gruffle Gaw]

Alright, there may be hope.

 

I found the following link on a Government website, which outlines the main points of the Sale of Goods Act in brief: http://www.dti.gov.uk/consumers/fact-sheets/page24700.html

 

Please note:

 

• Goods are of satisfactory quality if they reach the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking into account the price and any description.

 

• If goods do not conform to contract at the time of sale, purchasers can request their money back "within a reasonable time". (This is not defined and will depend on circumstances)

 

• A purchaser who is a consumer, i.e. is not buying in the course of a business, can alternatively request a repair or replacement.

 

And:

 

Q9. Must I accept a credit note instead of a refund?

It depends on why you want to return the goods.

• If you have changed your mind, then the shop doesn't have to do anything.

• But if the goods are faulty, incorrectly described or not fit for purpose, then you are entitled to your money back (provided you act quickly), and you certainly don't have to take a credit note

• If you do accept a credit note in these circumstances, watch out, as there may be restrictions on their use.

• If the shop displays a sign stating they only give credit notes instead of refunds, they might be breaking the law and you could report them to your local Trading Standards Department.

This sounds like it's your choice as the purchaser whether you have a refund or replacement provided the goods are incorrectly described (wrong photograph), which is good news. However:

 

• In general, the onus is on all purchasers to prove the goods did not conform to contract (e.g. was inherently faulty) and should have reasonably lasted until this point in time

 

It looks like you might have some joy with this in the small claims court, especially if you explain that a) you believe you were mislead by the listing and believed you were going to get a camera and b) even if the court believes the seller did not mislead you in this respect, the wrong picture was supplied and you therefore want a refund. I believe a judge will take a very dim view of the seller in any case, and with the law technically on your side as well you are likely to win.

 

However, the fact that the seller lives in Nigeria may be a problem, because even if you were to win it would be hard to enforce the court order. However, it may prompt Paypal to agree to refund your money; while Paypal is not liable, if a judge has ruled you should have a refund I think Paypal will be forced to facilitate this and recouperate the money from the seller.

 

I would email Paypal asking if they would refund your money if a court ruling was made in your favour before proceeding.

[Gruffle Gaw]

Keep us updated. I sincerely hope you are able to get your money back.

[blacksheep1979]

I'm fairly sure that the SOG act doesn't apply to private sales only companies/businesses

[Gruffle Gaw]

Ah. I didn't consider that, and it would appear you are right blacksheep.

 

Sorry metalrat, I'm out of ideas.

[metalrat]

Hi

Thanks for your help in this blacksheep, Gruffle Gaw, here is the state of play at the moment

The seller had until today to reply to pp regarding my claim against him, 12 noon gmt I think but don't quote me on that.

Early this afternoon I received a message from pp saying that they had now ruled in my favour, unfortunately there was insufficient funds in his account for a full refund so they refunded what they could.

My account is now credited 205.00 gbp which means I am still 125.00 gbp out of pocket, not ideal but better than nothing at all.

Paypal have stated I need do nothing at this stage and they will try to recover the balance, I'm not optimistic about this.

On the bright side if this helps as a lesson for the future for me and indeed anyone who reads this thread then it may be turn out to be a bargain.

Read read read and read again there are no laws I could find that protect against this type of [problem] and that is indeed what it is, it was only his own stupidity that got me a part refund.

Paypal I believe tried to contact him by phone and email but I believe he used a false telephone number for the [problem] and pp couldn't contact him on it, because of this the decision went my way.

I need help on this last bit, I need to leave this joker some feedback in not more than 80 characters no threats etc, I want it nice and negative so please send me some ideas.

[metalrat]

Any advice appreciated for this next query

I am still outstanding about 125.00GBP from this [problem].

Because paypal waited a week before freezing his account the upshot is he had time to spend around 125.00GBP on purchases he wanted.

He has been banned from ebay since they found in my favour however I don't suppose it will be hard to create a new account to resume trading/[causing problems] again.

My question is this, am I protected for my out of pocket expenses through the "Standard Purchase Protection" that paypal state.

Unfortunately I get the same automated reply to every enquiry I have made to them, it seems I cannot contact a "real" person.

I understand the first £15.00 is for admin and that the maximum is 120.00GBP so am I entitled to 105.00GBP or not and how can I enforce this?

[Gruffle Gaw]

Good question, and the answer is I don't know. However, Paypal do have a contact telephone number and I have spoken to a real person in the past using it. It is somewhere on their web site - I'll browse around and see if I can find it. I suggest you call them on it and ask them directly.

[stan5131]

Metalrat, I was selling a mobile phone. It was bought twice by Nigerian [problematic]. I was immediately alerted by the paypal emails, asking me to post to addresses in Nigeria. One claimed to live in the US and the other in Canada. I got both of them kicked off Ebay, but am pretty sure they will be up and running again in no time. This Nigerian [problem], is huge, and I would like to know why Ebay have not done enough to irradicate it!

 

If you look at most electrical/gadget auctions, the seller clearly states, if you are from Nigeria/Africa dont bother bidding! Thats because this is so widespread that most sellers have been affected.

 

How do these people manage to open accounts, claiming to be from a Country that they dont even reside in? Surely Ebay can put measures into place to stop this from happening.

[MARTIN3030]

Unfortunately the Nigerian [problematic] are active in every area of buying and selling.

There is a big tell tale sign in the way that they speak or write.

A good example is the Loot where they will reply with more or less the same wording to all your ads.

They want it they want it they want to know present condition and best price.They will arrange shipping etc etc..........so on it goes.

Paypal and e bay should have systems in place to address issues of fraud ,that effectively protect members/users.

I cannot believe for a minute they are happy with whats going on its certainlty not in their interests to ignore it.

But saying that its not impossible to try and get n top of it

Problem is these ppl are professionals and like to remain one step ahead.

If Paypal or ebay cannot guarantee protection from scams when transactions are done through their own systems then they should farm out this business to people that can

[metalrat]

I finally got a different reply from paypal, they state that as they recovered 205GBP of the 330GBP from the sellers account then I am not entitled to use the "Standard Purchase Protection" to claim back my losses.

I would have thought that I was entitled to this regardless of whether I received any monies owed to me from his account.

Are they saying if for example they had recoved only 10GBP that because of this it would invalidate my right to use the "SPP" to claim against my losses?

I would have thought the 2 issues are separate, the first being recovery of my funds and the second to cover my losses up to the amount I lost to the value of 120GBP minus 15GBP processing.

Have I justifiable grounds for a claim or should I call it quits and put it down to experience?

Thanks in advance

[jaxads]

I will never use paypal again!!!!! I think you'll have to put it down to a bad experience. I've had something similar, where I've lost out to the tune of £370. Before Christmas I bought two separate lots of vouchers from ebay. The seller had excellent feedback, over 500. I paid £450 for one lot and £420 for another. I paid for them both together which was obviously my big mistake. Whilst each ebay item was covered for up to £500 buyer protection, the fact that I'd paid for them together reduced it to one £500. As it came to £870 - I'm out of pocket by £370. All I can get from paypal is Dear XXXXXXXXXX In response, we have paid the maximum of £500 and will chase the seller for the remainder. They won't tell me what they're doing to try to get the funds, and just keep fobbing me off!!! I'll either have to put it down to a bad experience or take it up with the police - but to be honest I don't think I can stand the hassle!!!! Someone on this site recommened a don't use paypal site which I read, it gave loads of paypal horror stories, but I cannot remember the www address now!!!

[trickytrish]

hi op

 

I'm no expert on these matters but I do read the ebay boards a lot!

 

I would say go to the financial ombudsman to try to recover the rest of your funds! I do believe theres a link to it somewhere on this site!

 

I know this is a different scenerio but paypal limited my paypal account with quite a bit of my money in it! was limited for biggest part of 6 months grrrrrrr I went to financial ombudsman and they sorted it straight away and got it unlimited within 2 weeks and not only that they'll also charge paypal for the privillage and wont cost you a penny and you might just be successful

 

but good luck

[metalrat]

Just an update,

Paypal have as far as they are concerned done their bit by refunding me what they could from the [problematic] account.

They also say I have no recourse with them through the "standard purchase protection" as they have already refunded??? (yes, but what about my protection?)

I have however managed to locate the [EDIT] with a bit of my own detective work, you will not be surprised to discover the joker is not from Romford as he claimed.

Not sure whether to go to the Police again (personally would go over and ....) but that probably gets me into trouble.

I can understand the lack of positive action suggested by CAG members, reading the anti-paypal sites highlights the impossible task of actually achieving anything against PP, I should have found the sites before I thought of posting I guess.

If and that now seems a big IF, I do manage to get a satisfactory close to this I will let you all know

Have fun!

Stuart

[meagain]

If it makes a different, what has happened is clear-cut fraud. The auction was clearly pitched with the purpose of creating in the mind of the buyer the impression that they are bidding on a camera. As for the inclusion of "picture" in the title line, it is not unreasonable to suggest that an innocent buyer assumes this is either part of a model name, or included to broaden the search keywords, or that the listing contains a good picture of the item for sale. It is also fraudulent because it would be unconscionable in the mind of a reasonable person that someone would be merely selling a home-printed picture of a camera, which would have no value whatsoever. If they have considered your complaint and decided that all is well, eBay and/or PayPal have now become accessory to fraud. It is well within their ability to do a full reversal. Because there are no further funds in the account it has been paid to is no reason for them to refuse a full reversal, especially since when sellers get ripped off by fraudulent buyers they have no problem with sending account balances into the red.

[taz_in_2001]

Escalate to a claim it will give you that option he has 10 days to respond or it automatically gets ruled in your favour

[telewest]

edited

[metalrat]

Unfortunately for me Paypal have done as much as they are willing to do. They say that if the [EDIT] uses his closed account again they will recover my funds from it, as if that is likely to happen.

I have challenged them regarding the protection but it would appear that as they have recoved part of my losses, at no loss to them or their insurers I might add then I am not covered by the standard purchase protection anymore.

Isn't that the same as your insurance refusing to compensate you for losses because the police recovered half of your stolen items back after a break in at your home?

What displeased me most was Paypals readiness to dismiss my claim and draw it to a conclusion that I find unacceptable.

They might just as well say; be thankful for what we have done for you, you are lucky to get that much back, which probably is what they are saying.