PCN received - unclear "no stopping" times - ** CANCELLED BY COUNCIL **

[Zettai Baka]

1 hour ago, Hungrydoug said:

It meets the guidance in the traffic signs manual Chapter 7:

 

"12.2.3. If the time period covers only “am” or “pm”, but not both, then “am” or “pm”, as appropriate, should be shown only against the end time."

 

Hi Hungrydoug, thanks for quoting this and bringing it to my attention. The way I see this is as follows:

 

The prohibited parking times are from 10 am to 5 am. This time period exceeds 12 hours, and therefore covers both am and pm. That is, if you start counting from 10 am and stop counting at 5 am, at some point you will pass through "pm". Rule 12.2.2, as stated, only applies if the time period covers only "am" or "pm" -- not both -- and therefore this rule does not apply.

 

For instance, if the prohibited times were 5 am to 10 am -- that entire period covers "am" and only "am", and in that case this rule applies. What do you think?

Edited August 2, 2019 by Zettai Baka

[Jamberson]

6 hours ago, Hungrydoug said:

It meets the guidance in the traffic signs manual Chapter 7:

 

"12.2.3. If the time period covers only “am” or “pm”, but not both, then “am” or “pm”, as appropriate, should be shown only against the end time."

 

Which could be read one of two ways, but there would be enough wiggle room to say it was conforming.

 

That clause describes what should be done if the sign only covers am or pm.

 

This sign doesn't cover only one of them - so the clause is not relevant.

[king12345]

I am sure it's been done deliberately. 

[ericsbrother]

well, even the notes are open to interpretation as 10am round the clock through to 5 am covers all of the pm so is BOTH am and pm so not an ONLY, even if the start and finish times are both am. the law will assume the words in ther most common or simplest meaning if no specific is indicated

Now we would all agree that the second bit makes sense, 5-10am but I am going to throw another spanner in the works and ask what yellow lines were there on the road as no stopping is diferent o no parking and DYL's will do for you anyway.

If yu go to appeal you will ned to photograph the road in front of the signa and along the road if a bay is marked out in an area of DYL or restricted parking zone

[Hungrydoug]

Jamberson, I completely agree, I would sign the restriction as either 10am - 5am or 10am - midnight, midnight - 5am. Unfortunately the quality of signing nowadays is only getting worse. However I wonder if the council would use the wiggle room of the quoted TSM clause as justification?

[Zettai Baka]

Well, whaddya know! Stood my ground and saved some money, thanks to all of you! Please see attached image  

 

Thanks to everyone who offered their advice! I will donate the £35 that I saved to this forum instead, via the Donate button. Hopefully it pays for hosting this website, or something.

 

I had to chuckle at the last paragraph that says "Please note, any future contravention may be enforced." Ha. Ha.

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Zettai Baka
verbosity

[honeybee13]

Well done everybody. I'll change your thread title, ZB, to show the result.

 

Thank you very much for the donation, it will certainly help us to carry on helping other people who have similar problems.

 

HB

[AndyOrch]

 Yes many thanks...an extremely generous donation

 

Regards

 

Andy

[king12345]

CEO error...

Talking rubbish here.

What error?

[Zettai Baka]

55 minutes ago, king12345 said:

CEO error...

Talking rubbish here.

What error?

 

Yeah, I thought that part was dodgy as well. If you remember, their initial response to my appeal stated pretty strongly that they were in the right, and I was in the wrong. Then I replied to them with a polite but firmly worded email, which I have attached, in case anyone's interested.

Reply to Oldham Council PCN appeal denial.pdf

[king12345]

Nice one!