lowell/BW claimform - old vanquis debt

[AndyOrch]

You will be lucky if you get 30 mins...the problem is you have failed to comply with directions.....so your trying to play catch up...by not submitting a WS or evidence on time you will be very lucky if a Judge allows your WS because the claimant will not have had time to consider it and you may have to rely on verbal testimony only.

 

This is why the process is set out in the Notice of Allocation (the one you didnt comply with) so both parties can prepare their arguments and evidence....exchange...and no one is disadvantaged.

 

You wont be making any speeches...lucky if you get a few sentences.....but within that few sentences you must cast doubt and get the DJ attention re Section 87/88 the need for a DN.

 

Even if he adjourns it....orders the claimant to disclose evidence re service of a Default N... it will allow both parties to regroup and you to be able to prepare and submit a considered particularised statement.

 

Possibly a skeleton argument statement may be more apt with bullet points of argument.

[spelluk]

Thanks Andyorch - makes sense. I will prepare a skeleton instead then and send over for some comments. Any specific format to follow? Do I need to hand it to both the DJ and Claimant as soon as I step into the courtroom? Or just read it when I'm being asked to speak?

 

I'm trying to remove my post with the statements but can't seem to be able to do so. Have I missed something?

[AndyOrch]

Similar to a WS but less formal....use headers/Clamant/Defendant/County Court XXXXXX /Claim Number etc etc.

 

Rather than paragraphs simply bullet point your main contentions /arguments in response to the WS as to why the claimant claim should fail.

 

You could email a copy to the claimant this evening (assuming they accept electronic service) and hand a copy in to the court usher on arrival.

 

Then they have had notice

[shamrocker]

If you can't post the statements here due to problems with redacting them, can you email them to me if I PM you with my email address? I'd like to see what's on them.

[AndyOrch]

If you can't post the statements here due to problems with redacting them, can you email them to me if I PM you with my email address? I'd like to see what's on them.

 

We prefer all to be on the thread Sham....OP can upload again and redact his account number and anything identifiable.....only 4 sheets.

 

 

Andy

[shamrocker]

Fair enough Andy - completely understand. I was just mindful that time is ticking, and I wanted to see if there was anything in it that could throw doubt on the total claimed.

[spelluk]

Re-uploaded will all personal details hidden

 

 

 

 

 

[shamrocker]

Is that all the statements - just 4 pages? Have they included anything displaying the account balance?

 

Is the balance included within the black strip down the side?

[AndyOrch]

Is that all the statements - just 4 pages? Have they included anything displaying the account balance?

 

Is the balance included within the black strip down the side?

 

Nope.....even more the VAnquis Logo looks suspect to me...as if they have been typed up in a back room and the logo copied and pasted to the letter:-)

[shamrocker]

There are about 15x £12 default charges on the statements, plus a load of monthly £6 ID Protection charges which would also have been attracting interest.

 

Do you, by any chance, recall disputing these £12 charges and £6 ID Protection fees over the phone and refusing to make payment until the matter was resolved - after which they just closed the account and sold it on?? Ring any bells?

[spelluk]

Nope the hidden info is my account number and the card number... no balance whatsoever! This is something I asked in my defense as well (attached to my original post):

 

o The defendant denies the claimant is due statutory interest on the alleged amount of £1,165.05.- As such I request full disclosure of the amount the Claimant alleges to have paid for this alleged debt.

 

Basically never got any sort of statement whatsoever that shows how the hell the debt increased that much. I believe my initial credit limit was around £100 - then went up to £200 or £300 (can't find any files supporting this as I've lost lots of posts during house moves in the last 6 years.

 

Is this something I should include in my skeleton? If so, what would be the best way to phrase it?

 

Don't know it that helps, but here is a copy of the CPR request I sent them. Just noticed I didn't specifically asked for the default notice but did mention that they failed to provide with a default notice in my submitted defense. Is the fact of me not asking for it in my CPR request something that will play against me?

 

BW CPR.pdf

[spelluk]

I'm afraid I haven't done so... back then when I wasn't in a very good place (both in professional and personal life), I stupidly buried my hand in the sand around this matter... until their letter of claim 2 years ago!

[shamrocker]

That's a s.77/78 CCA request, not a CPR request. Is that the only letter you sent them? I recall seeing them mention a CPR request in their WS. I'll have to look again at what they stated.

 

There is 19x £6 payments for ID Protection - which would be accruing interest at the usual rate, plus compound interest on top. It's probably a complete con, and definitely gives scope to use as the basis of a historical dispute. These may have been added every months for years.

 

The statutory interest is the 8% interest until judgement that they add on - you can and should dispute it, as it's added at the court's discretion and should be a reflection on the BOE base rate.

 

spelluk said:

I'm afraid I haven't done so... back then when I wasn't in a very good place (both in professional and personal life), I stupidly buried my hand in the sand around this matter... until their letter of claim 2 years ago!

 

Are you really sure?? Think harder!!!

[spelluk]

My bad! I did send the CPR request (phew) - attached to this thread (file was saved in a different folder).

 

Re the interests, fess, etc. I'm not sure to fully grasp what I should do or how I should include this in my skeleton... as I barely just got my head around the Default Notice (which seems more straightforward than interests etc. ). Could you help with how I should put this into an argument for the skeleton? Or best course of action still is to focus solely on the Default Notice?

 

Trying to PM you about this but haven't posted enough yet to do so... could you clarify this further by sending me a PM?

[honeybee13]

Trying to PM you about this but haven't posted enough yet to do so... could you clarify this further by sending me a PM?

 

There's no need to PM, anything non-confidential can be discussed on the thread

 

HB

[spelluk]

No worries - I just wasn't sure if there some hidden hints in shamrocker's question

[shamrocker]

No need for PMs, as HB said.

 

If you could recall phoning Vanquis to dispute the unlawful penalty charges and £6 payments for ID protection that you did not sign up to or were mis-sold - the judge would most likely offer you a tiny bit of sympathy and it would set the scene nicely, albeit you haven't got anything to prove the dispute. It's about the balance of probabilities. You can't just make stuff up in court though, so be warned (these debt buyers would never make stuff up).

 

There are 3 main weaknesses in their claim -

 

1. Nothing to support the total they're claiming

2. No mention of the account being defaulted, or DN issued

3. The penalty charges and ID Protection

 

If you can recall ever making a complaint or dispute with Vanquis, it would add a bit of weight and also provide a motive for the account being closed and sold off.

 

The lack of DN alone should be enough to see the claim off. The lack of evidence of the actual account balance could be enough to see it off. Challenging the penalty charges (you'd need to arm yourself with basic reasons why they're unlawful) and ID Protection will cast doubt and potentially reduce the claimed amount. Add them all together and you creating a bit of a mess for the judge to untangle - and they might well not even attempt to make any sense of it, and simply dismiss the claim.

 

Does that give you something to go on?

 

P.S. I helped someone before on here. They had raised a dispute via telephone, so this was mentioned in their WS. In addition, we got stuck into the detail within their evidence....numbers didn't add up, dates didn't correspond, etc. The cumulative effect just makes the whole claim look extremely dodgy. They won the claim. That's the angle I'm proposing you use.

[AndyOrch]

Try not to get side tracked with fees and interest etc...they will have been placed by the Original Creditor Vanquis..you are defending against a DCA Lowell who will have as much knowledge about the agreement /debt as your next door neigbour.

 

Concentrate on procedure......a DCA cant correct what the OP did or didnt do...they are saddled with the debt and as such you have to inform the court of these errors.

 

 

Andy

[spelluk]

Thanks - it does build a bit of confidence!

 

Somehow not so comfortable with the penalty charges/ID protection side of things as it eems more detailed and "complicated" than the default notice and account balance that proves the money I owe. And I am very mindful of the time I have until the hearing! So would much rather focus on the arguments I'm more confident with. If that makes sense?

 

Here is my drafted skeleton, although was just before I saw your reply shamrocker. Any suggestion on where I should include the argument about lack of evidence of the actual account balance?

 

[HEADER]

 

I am the Defendant in this action.

 

In response to the Claimant's Witness Statement:

- I made a CPR request to the claiment on 26th October 2016, in particular to get proof a Default Notice

- To date I have not received the requested information

- In its Witness Statement (p.36), the Claimant states aknowledges now having proof of a Default Notice or that one was ever sent

- In its Witness Statement (p.37), the Claimant believes that the non-production of the Default Notice is not fatal to its case

- Under section 87(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 the Claimant must serve a default notice before they can demand payment under a regulated credit agreement

- Failure to serve a default notice is an unlawful rescission of contract, which would not only prevent the Court enforcing any alleged debt, but also allow a claim for damages

- The Claimant has not provided the Default Notice necessary to maintain this action against me and thereof this action must fail as it represents a denial of the consumer rights given to me under s.87 of the act

 

Conclusion

 

In the circumstances I respectfully request that the Court makes an order:

 

- That the claim against me be struck out

- That the Claimant removes any and all credit reference data arising from the unenforceable debt.

[shamrocker]

In case there is any doubt, Andyorch is the one you need to listen to on here above everyone else.

 

...until you know who's who, that is.

 

shamrocker said:

In case there is any doubt, Andyorch is the one you need to listen to on here above everyone else.

 

Noted, thanks to both of you

 

Just noticed I didn't attach CPR request in my previous post - here it is.

BW CPR 10.2016.pdf

 

spelluk said:

Thanks - it does build a bit of confidence!

 

Somehow not so comfortable with the penalty charges/ID protection side of things as it eems more detailed and "complicated" than the default notice and account balance that proves the money I owe. And I am very mindful of the time I have until the hearing! So would much rather focus on the arguments I'm more confident with. If that makes sense?

 

Yes, that sounds sensible, and is in line with what Andy suggested above. Focus on the lack of DN and lack of evidence of the balance (assuming they haven't supplied any).

 

Going to have food now but will add some stuff to your skeleton later this evening.

[AndyOrch]

Conclusion

 

In the circumstances I respectfully request that the Court makes an order:

 

- That the claim against me be struck out....It will only be dismissed if you get your points over re valid default notice or lack of one and no reference to it

- That the Claimant removes any and all credit reference data arising from the unenforceable debt. Not going to happen

 

I will only get chance to sharpen your statement later this evening...if your still around.

 

 

Andy

[spelluk]

Yes, that sounds sensible, and is in line with what Andy suggested above. Focus on the lack of DN and lack of evidence of the balance (assuming they haven't supplied any).

 

Going to have food now but will add some stuff to your skeleton later this evening.

 

Amazing Thanks so much.

 

They haven't supplied any evidence of the balance - only those dodgy statements from their WS. Is it a possibility that they will show up with some extra documents at the hearing? i.e. Default Notice and actual statements of the debt?

 

I will send my skeleton to BW Legal as soon as it's finished tonight.

Luckily their WS statement was sent from a normal email address.

The person who sent it (and did the WS) is from the Paralegal Litigation Team

- does that sound ok to send to?

And I'll then hand a copy to the usher in court.

 

Shall I give a reason why it was sent at the last minute?

 

Conclusion

 

In the circumstances I respectfully request that the Court makes an order:

 

- That the claim against me be struck out....It will only be dismissed if you get your points over re valid default notice or lack of one and no reference to it

- That the Claimant removes any and all credit reference data arising from the unenforceable debt. Not going to happen

 

I will only get chance to sharpen your statement later this evening...if your still around.

 

 

Andy

 

Thanks - will certainly be around!

Going to spend my evening focusing on this and getting prepared for tomorrow (hearing is in the morning). Likely to be around till about midnight/1am (I'm a late sleeper )

 

Just wondering if there are any evidence/proofs/supporting documents I should take with me tomorrow beside the skeleton?

 

Can only think of the CPR request that could be of value. Or should I print all the correspondences I sent them and the court?

Edited April 30, 2018 by dx100uk
merge

[dx100uk]

they cant turn up and present any additional documentation not already disclosed!!

[spelluk]

Good to know! Have done some small tweaks to the skeleton and spend quite some time reading about and getting familiar with both CPR rules the CCA 1974, particularly section 87. I feel like it's all I have time to prepare well to get a slim chance of making it out winning tomorrow.

 

Andy, is there any chance you could help sharpening my statement? I will also log in tomorrow check if there are any new posts

 

Going to wake up early to be as fresh and ready as I can. Will update everyone once I get out of there in case others are following this.

 

 

I am the Defendant in this action.*

 

In response to the Claimant's Witness Statement:

- I requested relevant information from the Claimant under CPR rules on 26th October 2016, in particular, to get proof of a Default Notice and full disclosure of the amount the Claimant alleges to have paid for this alleged debt

- To date, I have not received the requested information

- In its Witness Statement (p.36), the Claimant states not having proof of a Default Notice or that one was ever sent

- In its Witness Statement (p.37), the Claimant believes that the non-production of the Default Notice is not fatal to its case

- Under section 87(1) of the*consumer credit*Act 1974 the Claimant must serve a default notice before they can demand payment under a regulated Credit Agreement

- Failure to serve a default notice is an unlawful rescission of contract, which would not only prevent the Court enforcing any alleged debt, but also allow a claim for damages

- The Claimant has not provided the Default Notice necessary to maintain this action against me and thereof this action must fail as it represents a denial of the consumer rights given to me under s.87 of the act

- The Claimant has not provided full disclosure of the sum claimed

 

Conclusion

 

In the circumstances I respectfully request that the Court makes an order that the claim be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order

[shamrocker]

Their WS says you "allegedly" made a CPR request. Do you have evidence of posting?

 

I can see from the letter you posted above that you made the request twice.