Arrow/Blake Morgan PAP letter re Halifax OD

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Update: Shoosmiths have also sent a PAP letter, do you guys need me to upload the letter?

 

So im presuming nobody has been in this situation yet if there is no OD version?

[Andyorch]

Redact and upload what you have received

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Shoos PAP

 

BM PAP reuploaded minus their bank details

Shoo PAP.pdf

BM PAP.pdf

[dx100uk]

interesting they state you signed an agreement and you are entitled to see it.

 

in that mind then

i'd use post 6 of our pap thread detailed on post 44

 

one each!

 

no need to waste money

use 2nd class post with free proof of posting from the PO counter

[Andyorch]

Well as already advised the form is not designed for current accounts and you cant ask for the agreement...you can ask for the overdraft facility notice complete with T&Cs from the date the facility was entered into.

 

Also full statements of account and the Demand/Termination Notice (Notice served under Sections 76(1) and 98(1) of the CCA1974.

 

Along with Notice of Assignment to their client (Arrow)

 

And any further in connection to any dispute with the account.

[dx100uk]

blake morgan page 3 of the 2nd pdf states:

 

the debt arises from a written agreement between you and BOS dates [redacted] and you are entitled to receive a copy of the agreement at you request.

 

so if they don't supply that they can...

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Ok great so next step I’m

 

Sending cca Request as outlined in post 6 of that thread for PIP, along with the reply form and defence statement you posted up in this thread? Anything else to include such as a statement highlighting they suggest I’m in titled to an agreement?

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H Guys,

 

So im going to send off my reply today and wanted to double check i have everything right:

 

PAP reply form from CAS here:

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?481827-The-Pre-Action-Protocol-for-Debt-Claims-is-made-by-the-Master-of-the-Rolls-as-Head-of-Civil-Justice.-1st-Oct-2017(1-Viewing)-nbsp

 

box D ticked

 

I dispute this debt because..the debt purchaser has yet to provide any or all of the required documentation.

 

box I ticked

I am requesting by way of a CCA Request the signed agreement. AND INCLUDE a CCA request found here:

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?387435-CCA-Request-Consumer-Credit-Act-1974

Include £1 PO

 

THEN also write I also require.. Written on a separate page:

 

a copy of the Default Notice

A copy of the Notice of Assignment

A complete set of statements detailing exactly how the debt has accrued detailing:

I. All Transactions.

II. any additional charges, by the original creditor or XXXX the debt purchaser or any predecessor DCA.

III. details of all contractual interest added by whom and on what date.

IV. List of ALL Payments made toward the Agreement

 

That's it right?

 

Thank you once again for all the help

[dx100uk]

sounds ok.

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Thanks again DX!!!

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Quick update:

Blake morgan replied acknowledging my CCA req and other documentation requests and have passed to their 'client' saying due to the nature of their clients work this can take a few weeks.

[dx100uk]

that'll be fun to see your signed agreement they state they have...

 

dream on..

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Hi Guys,

 

today i received a letter from Arrow directly with my £1 postal order returned.

 

Letter is attached.

 

They accept they are not the creditor and have rejected it under the fact OD arent covered by the CCA

 

This is getting quite interesting now... lots of letter tennis!

 

Nothing yet from Shoosmiths/Arrow about the £1k OD, although Arrow did make a mistake and attached the balance sheet for that OD in this letter

CCA reply.pdf

[Andyorch]

" We do not accept that we are the creditor as envisaged by the above statute "

 

Cracks me up every time I see that on a Arrows missive

 

We know your not the creditor your the assignee and claimant and therefore

 

As an assignee or creditor as defined in section 189 of the CCA this applies to this new requirement on assignment of rights. This means that when an assignee purchases debts (or otherwise acquires rights under a credit agreement) it also acquires certain obligations to the borrower including the duty to comply with CCA requirements (such as the rules on statements and notices and other post-contractual information).

 

The assignee becomes the creditor under the agreement. This ensures that essential consumer protections under the CCA cannot be circumvented by assigning the debt to a third party.

 

Even if it was a credit card or loan ...they still state the same paragraph...we are not the creditor and return your £1

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Haha thanks Andy, So should i reply?

[Ford]

 

have rejected it under the fact OD arent covered by the CCA

 

r

o/d's after feb 2011 (an earlier post refers to it being 2012) are covered by the cca re the cca requirements since regarding o/d's.

basically, re an applicable o/d a credit o/d agreement is required. a creditor wld need to furnish its credit o/d agreement terms at the time of application or asap after (no sig required). depending on the circumstances.

if they haven't done that, then is up to the court. see the revised act.

imo, a request for copy o/d credit agreement under the cca is vaild.

as well as under cpr

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Thanks a lot Ford! Yes the OD started for the £2k account in 2012 and the £1k OD actually after so both are covered it seems.

 

When you say see revised act you mean the CCA right?

 

CPR you mean Civil procedure rules?

 

So shall i reply and dispute this reponse or have this prepared should this go to court?

[Ford]

yes, the revised consumer credit act, s61b etc. re o/d credit agreement terms.

yes, cpr = civil procedure rules. eg re requesting copy of an agreement/document terms mentioned.

see what the guys suggest

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Awesome thanks very much massively appreciated. Right ill get my facts together, do some reading and see what other suggest to add

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SAR confirms dates of accounts opened being late 2011 and 2012

 

The BM PAP letter included this statement noticed by DX100Uk: the debt arises from a written agreement between you and BOS dates [2009] and you are entitled to receive a copy of the agreement at you request.

 

Bit confusing why BM wrote 2009, i can only imagine i may have had a different NON OD account with HBOS before 2011, but even my statements in my SAR start late 2011

[Ford]

generally. even if there was an o/d facility in place prior to 2011 on an account, any formal change (new credit arrangement) to it after 2011 eg increased/decreased/new o/d limit would require compliance with s61b being a new o/d credit agreement. imo.

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Thanks Ford,

 

i received the same worded letter from Arrow RE the £1000 OD (one passed to shoosmiths), PO £1 returned also.

 

Im drafting a letter to each and will also forward to Shoosmoths and BM (as Arrows letter states to correspond with them).

 

Was thinking of writing the following,

any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I'm continuing to search for similar cases and solutions.

 

Thank you for you letter in response to my Reply form and supporting requests.

You state you do not accept or acknowledge my request.

However after seeking advice on this matter, I must inform you that you are infact incorrect and i am entitled to my request.

 

As part of the reply form and letters sent to me was stated:

 

“the debt arises from a written agreement between you and ….. ..and you are entitled to receive a copy of the agreement at your request.”

 

I will also point out that Overdrafts after February 2011 are covered by the CCA and the CCA requirements since regarding Overdrafts.

Therefore an applicable overdraft credit agreement is required. A creditor will need to furnish its credit overdraft agreement terms.

 

I attach again my £1 postal orders and Request under the CCA and CPR you abide by my request.

 

I am aware you are not the creditor, you are the assignee and claimant and therefore as an assignee or creditor as defined in section 189 of the CCA this applies to this new requirement on assignment of rights.

 

This means that when an assignee purchases debts (or otherwise acquires rights under a credit agreement) it also acquires certain obligations to the borrower including the duty to comply with CCA requirements (such as the rules on statements and notices and other post-contractual information). The assignee becomes the creditor under the agreement. This ensures that essential consumer protections under the CCA cannot be circumvented by assigning the debt to a third party.

 

I await you reply.

[Ford]

up to you. my posts on it re a cca request/cpr being applicable to an o/d incepted after 2011 are just IMO

you'll probably get the same response back ie not covered re a cca request/cpr

in that upload letter above #63, they refer to Part v. the old part v is re o/d's incepted prior to 2011.

s61b though is law for o/d's after 2011. if they didn't comply with that regarding an applicable overdraft, then as it says it is up to the court to decide re any enforcement.

wait for the guys input on your letter first.

[patterns]

Completely agree ill get the same reply and i know DX100Uk will say dont bother sending

 

Both OD definitely incepted after 2011, i find no reference to it being earlier and the SAR states it in 2 places.

 

Agreed lets wait and see what the input best to not be hasty, but thank you again, learning slowly slowly

[Ford]

afair one dca (not yours) has sort of acknowledged in writing that an o/d after 2011 would be subject to a cca request re its required s61b agreement terms. which added to my view on it.