Debt-ridden courier's suicide after bailiff visit prompts call for reforms

[unclebulgaria67]

Already an existing discussion thread about this.

 

The new enforcement law does not work properly and enforcement agents have too much power vested in them. There needs to be another part of the process for those that cannot pay amounts owed.

[tobyjugg2]

There needs to be another part of the process for those that cannot pay amounts owed.

 

Yes

Prosecuting the agents and their employers in cases where the rules are broken and banning both from debt collection activities.

 

Then set a debt collector on them for the fines.,

[Leakie]

Why has this been moved to Debt collection it is a Bailiff issue

which need to in the disscusion part

[brassnecked]

Yes it was a bailiff not a jive-ass debt collector who clamped the motorcycle.

[dx100uk]

looks like when tobyjugg2 started a new thread on the same subject today

when these were merged

it stayed where tobyjugg2 had posted the new thread too - it in the debt collection section

now moved back.

 

dx

[lookinforinfo]

There appears to be a a substantial discrepancy in the valuation of the motor cycle. Part of this could be explained by the fact that the owner was a courier.

It would not be difficult to pay £3000 for a brand new bike then clocking up over 30,000 miles over a year wouldn't take long to considerably reduce its value.

 

Interesting that no mention has apparently been made as to whether the bike was on finance...............

[brassnecked]

There appears to be a a substantial discrepancy in the valuation of the motor cycle. Part of this could be explained by the fact that the owner was a courier.

It would not be difficult to pay £3000 for a brand new bike then clocking up over 30,000 miles over a year wouldn't take long to considerably reduce its value.

 

Interesting that no mention has apparently been made as to whether the bike was on finance...............

 

Good point, courier work and high mileage would reduce the bikes value considerably certainly by enough to make the EA look silly and on a sticky wicket with a clamping, notwithstanding that clamping a vehicle of any description absolutely required to do a job like a courier is counterproductive for the EA, as in no vehicle no work work no pay and no payment towards debt as ability to earn has been taken away, and demands by an EA that a debtor borrows money from any source to pay them to release a clamp or whatever reason, should be made a criminal offence . As to finance in this case don't think there would be much equity given courier work would reduce the bikes value to zilch.

[unclebulgaria67]

There appears to be a a substantial discrepancy in the valuation of the motor cycle. Part of this could be explained by the fact that the owner was a courier.

It would not be difficult to pay £3000 for a brand new bike then clocking up over 30,000 miles over a year wouldn't take long to considerably reduce its value.

 

Interesting that no mention has apparently been made as to whether the bike was on finance...............

 

It came out in the inquiry that the bike had done 17,000 miles in the year it was owned. It was given an official value of about £400 because of the amount of miles and courier work in a short space. Also probably not serviced, if the OP had limited funds. So it could quite easily have reduced from a retail value of £3,000 to less than £1,000 over the year it was owned.

 

The inconvenient fact being denied by some on this thread, is that the actions of this Enforcement Agent directly contributed to a 20 year old man not being alive today. When any Enforcement Company is trying to collect a significant amount of money from people struggling to pay debts and they are adding pressure to an already diificult position, then in a small number if cases, it could lead to life threatening situations. Nobody can deny this is the case.

 

If you accept collecting debts represents a risk to vulnerable people, then you have to ask what can be done about it. It should not be left to debt collectors to decide whether people are vulnerable or not. I would also remove any right to take control over of goods used as primary source of income. If there are situations like this, where a debtor in a stressed position like this cannot pay, then there should be an opportunity to seek a longer repayment term set by a court or other body. The current system promotes a rush to obtain money and to limit admin costs, creating a level of risk that might not be acceptable.

[brassnecked]

Agree UB, EA woefully overestimated value, that mileage and the use for Courier work make the £400 look about right, The whole Tools of Trade issue needs a reconsideration, as how depriving someone of the means to earn a living, and adding more debt to debt via fees helps the now jobless debtor to pay is crass. As to telling the now jobless person to get a loan is vindictive and plain wrong. That should be a criminal offence for which an EA should go to jail, no passing go, no collecting £235.

[tobyjugg2]

Why is anyone assuming this bike is anything more than a little moped or very old bike, particularly given the poor lads circumstances?

 

Honda valued it at £400 (probably Honda dealer book price on immaculate version without viewing it).

 

This is some Honda moped or old 100/125cc jobby not some superbike

 

So why is this bailiff and his company not being prosecuted for unreasonable harassment (in breach of codes of practice)?

[Old Cogger]

EA private prosecution needed - then do not stop there all the way to the ECJ

[lookinforinfo]

I thought that minicabs were virtually exempt from seizure as without the cab the driver cannot make money to pay their debts etc. Surely the motorbike is the same, as without it, the courier cannot earn. That could be at least one reason for the action he took.

[brassnecked]

I thought that minicabs were virtually exempt from seizure as without the cab the driver cannot make money to pay their debts etc. Surely the motorbike is the same, as without it, the courier cannot earn. That could be at least one reason for the action he took.

Bailiffs have been known to take minicabs, and now if the value is above the £1,350 tools of trade, then in all likelihood like the EA in this case they will have the cab away, and if on finance argue the Beneficial Interest malarkey to justify it.

[Leakie]

I think the reason for the £1350 tools of the trade, was made on the assumption this would be a good lever to get payment,

I bet itpushed for by the EA companies, and the powers to be thought it a good idea,

 

But as already said no tools no work, all the powers to be need is pen and paper

in other words not in the real world.

 

the regs do seriously need looking at, along with the councils and the Liability orders.

 

leakie

[unclebulgaria67]

Bailiffs have been known to take minicabs, and now if the value is above the £1,350 tools of trade, then in all likelihood like the EA in this case they will have the cab away, and if on finance argue the Beneficial Interest malarkey to justify it.

 

I think you will find that beneficial interest is no longer being pursued, as cases have been lost in court. Basically, EC's are not allowed to touch property owned by a finance company, as until the last payment is made, the vehicle is owned by the finance company and they cannot be forced into a sale. Therefore there is no interest to be released.

 

It was just one EC that tried this, when other EC's always stated they would not pursue BI on finance vehicles, because legally it was a bit iffy.

[Leakie]

The way I interpreted one of BA or Dodge Ball thread it was accepted.

 

so good that has been sorted in the courts

[lookinforinfo]

Why is anyone assuming this bike is anything more than a little moped or very old bike, particularly given the poor lads circumstances?

 

Honda valued it at £400 (probably Honda dealer book price on immaculate version without viewing it).

 

This is some Honda moped or old 100/125cc jobby not some superbike

 

The bike apparently cost £3000 just over a year ago so that would rule out I think a small bike. It had only done some 17,000 miles since purchase which is a small mileage for a courier. If he was only averaging 350 miles per week it is little wonder he was in debt.

.

[mariner51]

What constitutes 'tools of trade' is prob best left to HMRC or other Agencies. A Honda motorbike may be a 'tool of trade' for a Courier. but not if just used to commute to work. A Courier should at least have Business Use on Ins cover.

Most TV progs suggest most Bailiffs are reluctant to take control of goods that would prevent a person's continued employment.

I assume Jerome was badly in debt at start, received bad advice, stuck head in sand rather than seek prof debt advice. 2 PCN costs can rapidly escalate if ignored. Maybe we should have stuck with Victorian Debtors Prison?

[unclebulgaria67]

Victorian debtors prison is still an option e.g Council Tax debt, unpaid court fines.

 

I would suggest that the Enforcement industry as it works now will become outdated within 20 years. PCN's for computer driven cars will be difficult, as i expect these cars will be programmed to find legal parking spaces, with automated payment of parking tickets. Even with existing cars, there is no reason why an autopayment system linked to registered keeper could not be introduced. Photos and ticket showing parking offence sent to address of registered keeper and if not defended, PCN amount deducted by debit/credit card. Would require legislation, but a system could be introduced. Yes some payments might be rejected due to insufficient funds/credit limit, but perhaps the debt can then be added to vehicle licence or other way of obtaining money owed.

 

A bit off topic, but then mariner did ask what the alternative was.

[tobyjugg2]

In the first instance UB, unless we had been present at the Court on Friday we do not know that the young lad took his own life because of these two parking debts. There may well have been other debt related problems as well.

 

On the matter of the fees charged, we should not lose sight of the fact that payment for one penalty charge notice had been made some time in January and a payment arrangement was then set up. It looks as if that arrangement defaulted and a further visit was made in March last year. Can the bailiff charge an enforcement fee of £235 for that visit? I would say that he can.

 

I notice from press reports that his mother had stated that the enforcement company charged £310 for that visit. This was not correct at all. The compliance fee of £75 would have been added to the debt when the enforcement company sent the initial Notice of Enforcement. The visit in March would have attracted just the enforcement fee of £235.

 

It was the mother's partner who paid the sum of £500 to clear one of the debts in January and whether we like it or not, when it comes to an actual visit, many times payment is made by a third party.

 

This post actually shows EVERYTHING that is wrong with the attitude and morals involved here.

 

It seems to just look for excuses why charges might be considered 'legal' under some vague unwarranted interpretation of what might be legally 'getawaywithable'

... Rather than facts and abiding by even the VERY lax requirements

 

 

 

This chap had paid over £500 on two parking charges despite clearly being in financial difficulties (and thats an understatement)

 

 

All other things aside - The bailiff illegally clamped this poor chaps motorcycle with NO proper valuation or due dilligence and should be prosecuted.

 

His company (and Honda) effectively confirmed no proper due diligence was carried out.

[tobyjugg2]

This post actually shows EVERYTHING that is wrong with the attitude and morals involved here.

 

It seems to just look for excuses why charges might be considered 'legal' under some vague unwarranted interpretation of what might be legally 'getawaywithable'

... Rather than facts and abiding by even the VERY lax requirements

 

 

 

This chap had paid over £500 on two parking charges despite clearly being in financial difficulties (and thats an understatement)

 

 

All other things aside - The bailiff illegally clamped this poor chaps motorcycle with NO proper valuation or due dilligence and should be prosecuted.

 

His company (and Honda) effectively confirmed no proper due diligence was carried out.

 

just quoting this so I have an email copy

[Peterbard]

due diligence?

[tobyjugg2]

due diligence?

 

professional negligence ?

[Andyorch]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?477993-What-does-the-suicide-of-a-20-year-old-courier-say-about-our-bailiff-system-ExecReview(3-Viewing)-nbsp

[brassnecked]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?477993-What-does-the-suicide-of-a-20-year-old-courier-say-about-our-bailiff-system-ExecReview(3-Viewing)-nbsp

Thanks for that link Andyorch, it is crazy that there is a system that adds debt to debt as a means of discharging it. Stepchange don't think the 2014 Regs have helped much as well:

 

https://www.stepchange.org/Mediacentre/Pressreleases/Bailiffreformsnotworkingsaycharities.aspx