The Spouses Tickets Question - South West trains - ** RESOLVED **

[RugbyKEv]

Hi,

 

From reading a few posts on here, I see that

a) this is a serious situation

b) this group seems entirely helpful without being too judgmental and

c) what I have done is not without a reasonable amount of precedent , so hopefully there will be some help out there.

 

The situation in short: My wife is on Maternity leave, and I used her rail ticket.

It's a £14.50 return trip for the journey I was to make.

 

 

I had the photo id with it and when about to board the train, showed the ticket and was asked to show accompanying photo card. I did

(I, to my embarrassment, fibbed and claimed to have picked the wrong card up, when in fact I don't have one. I quickly admitted to this and said sorry). The card was taken and I was questioned at the site, under caution (interestingly that appeared to be her just saying, you're under caution. I sort of thought it would be the whole, "anything you say" shebang...

 

Now the mitigating facts.

1)

2)

3)

 

 

Ok, that list was short.

Hands up. I knew what I was doing and got caught.

 

 

A prosecution and criminal record seems a high price to pay, but if that is what the cost is, then as I say, mea culpa.

 

 

As with everyone else I had no idea of the gravity of the offence.

 

If I sound flippant, I am not, just with a new born at home and the perspective to life the events around his birth gave me, I am not going to let myself give in to self imposed stress for an action that I caused.

A criminal record is very serious and we can't really afford a punitive fine, however I did it, so if that is the cost, we'll find a way.

 

Slightly more serious case for the defense.

 

I've been back at work 2 weeks, since birth of new born first child. I have most definitely not used the ticket every day.

 

Some days I cycle in, some days, when I've not been rushing, I have purchased a ticket. Annoyingly I used cash but do not have the tickets and if honest, I used the wife's ticket on the days I caught the train more than I didn't, as usually leaving the house was a rushed affair.

 

I make no comment if my wife knew or not. It just wasn't discussed.

 

Questions I would ask me.

 

What did I admit to?

I admitted to using the ticket as my wife was on mat leave

I answer the question "if I had not been stopped would I have used the ticket to travel?" by admitting that I would have.

I did not admit, nor was I officially asked, (I.e it's a bit hazy but it most certainly was not written down) having used the pass before.

 

Did I travel?

Eventually, having purchased a valid ticket, yes. I did not board the train using my wife's ticket.

I will gladly admit to and pay for any trips made using it (are they recorded with a paper ticket? I genuinely do not know when I did or didn't use it. The last few weeks are all very hazy) I suspect out of a max 9 days since returning to work 4 or 5 were made using the ticket). I will happily agree to make recompense for admin costs etc but I am keen to avoid a criminal record.

 

Am I sorry?

Yes. What I can't work out, is am I sorry because I got caught and the offence is so serious? I am a hypocrite.

I think fare dodging is not cool.

Theft is theft and goods and services should be paid for.

I am a loud and passionate, albeit sometimes flippant, advocate of doing the right thing, however, I did this with a clear mind and as the ticket that was being used had been paid for, at great expense, didn't equate it to fare dodging. I accept that legally I am wrong. I can't work out if the guilt/sorrow I feel now is legally based or morally based.

 

I guess it doesn't matter, but I don't like being a hypocrite, so will work that one out myself. For now, the simple answer is, "Yes I am"

 

From previous threads I can see the first advice is: wait and see what their correspondence is. I shall do that.

 

I guess the point of the post is to ask, if people have a feel for how the TOC (SW trains) will play it.

 

Should I speak to CAB or a lawyer?

 

Work have an employee assistance scheme, worth giving them a call? (Although I'm only here (work) for 2 more days as I am moving jobs at which point the ticket would have resided in the draw gathering dust as

there is not enough time left on it once Mat leave started for any meaningful refund)

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited November 19, 2015 by RugbyKEv

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

You're right, we're not here to judge. And yes, you need to wait for the letter.

 

I don't think you're at the stage of needing a lawyer, not many people we see here go on to get one. We have some good industry people here, please bear with us until they're able to get here.

 

In the meantime, have a read around the forum of threads on SW trains and using other people's tickets. You can type search terms into the white box at the top right of this screen.

 

I've amended your thread title to show which TOC we're dealing with.

 

My best, HB

[RugbyKEv]

Thank you.

Hopefully they reply setting out what they want to do pretty quickly.

Again, 100% acknowledging that I've I'd cycled or purchased a new ticket, this wouldn't be happening, but with a 5 week old at home, it's a situation that would be great to get resolved one way or the other as soon as poss.

 

Aware they could take 6 months to reply, but hopefully not.

 

Quick reply greatly appreciated

Edited November 19, 2015 by RugbyKEv

[honeybee13]

They usually write in 6-8 weeks, Kev.

 

HB

[RugbyKEv]

Found an answer to one of my questions, although I am not 100% sure I fully understand it.

 

The specific para is this

 

Question: Do the ticket barriers store any data from the magnetic stripe?

If so for what purposes and for how long?

Answer:

The gates store a number of magnetic tickets used for entry or exit by

15-minute period, and the type of product on each ticket. For example,

it’ll report that between 12:00 and 12:15, ten One-Day travel cards were

used for entry, one Child Privilege single, and so forth.

 

Throughout the day it downloads the data to Cubic (our transportation

system), clearing its cache after each download. That data is currently

retained centrally by Cubic for a period of eight weeks.

 

The gates also report the times at which they changed status, i.e. from

‘working’ to ‘faulty’ and back again. This data is also downloaded

throughout the day and retained by Cubic for eight weeks.

 

So am I right that this implies that SWT and NR/TFL won't be able to tell me how many trips I made using a paper ticket? (I don't plan on disputing it, but if I am going to ffer to pay for the trips, it would be good to know how many there were)

 

Cheers

 

Kev

[king12345]

No, they won't be able to check how many journeys have been made on a paper ticket.

Good thing the rpi didn't ask and you didn't offer this information yourself.

Wait for their letter and then come back for more advice.

[RugbyKEv]

Thanks. Will bear that in mind when I get the letter. As I say, will prob offer to pay for the journeys I know I made, but proving which I did and which she has in the past (the vast, vast majority) would have been a pain. Will update when I get their letter. Thanks again

[dx100uk]

Prob won't enter into that

 

You need to read a few threads here

 

Await the letter then tell us what if exactly says in terms of what they allege you have done.

 

Grovel and offer to pay any equiv fines and administration costs to keep you name clean

[king12345]

Do not mention previous journeys if not asked

[RugbyKEv]

Noted, thanks.

 

I wasn't sure if as part of the groveling,

"wasn't aware of the seriousness of the offence" offering up a small number (which is all it is) would show good faith

and together with the fact that I didn't hide my wife's photo-card (although I didn't offer it up either) would add to the

"not trying to get away with it once copped" vibe.

 

 

But will defer to the experts as also see the fact that saying this was not a one off might make them more liable to prosecute.

[fletch70]

Assuming we are talking criminal prosecution the burden of proof is beyond reasonable doubt .

I do however have a certain jaded view of the legal system but I suspect a guilty plea to one count will be accepted . Do not mention anything they do not know.

 

It is odd how different train companies take a different view to alleged fare evasion. Certainly x country seem more relaxed although they do know who is genuine and who isn't.

[honeybee13]

We're a way from a guilty plea, fletch. The OP has to write his version of events and negotiate with SWT first.

 

HB

[fletch70]

Sorry HB

I wasn't intending to suggest anything just giving an unqualified opinion on worst case scenario. As I also said different train companies do seem to have different policies so who knows what may happen.

[Old-CodJA]

This is an action that is very likely to result in prosecution, but it is clear that the OP knows that already. The usual Appeal Court case precedent referred to by the prosecution is Browning & Floyd (1946)

That said, from reading the OP's articulate & concise account and subsequent thoughts, I get the feeling that he is perfectly capable of negotiating with the TOC himself once the letter seeking his version of events arrives.

 

There is a possibility that SWT might invite the OP to attend for an interview under PACE (84), but this would only be if they have a strong suspicion that the season ticket had been used repeatedly before the offence was detected.

 

The offence that can be alleged is 'having not previously paid HIS fare, did travel on a railway with intent to avoid a fare contrary to Section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act (1889)'. If convicted this does carry a criminal record entry and a maximum fine of up to £1000. Additionally the Magistrates may order the defendant to pay all of the following; all, or part of the prosecution costs, fares compensation to the TOC, a victim surcharge of 10% of the fine imposed and a compulsory Criminal Courts Charge (minimum £150)

 

I suggest that the OP makes a clear note of everything that he can remember from the interaction with the inspector so as to have a good aide memoir for when that SWT letter arrives. Once it does he may wish to write a profound apology to the company & staff concerned, explain that this was an irrational action borne of convenience and completely out of character, which will never be repeated. He might wish to say that a criminal conviction will likely have a devastating effect for his future employment and the security of his newborn family. He might ask if the TOC will allow him to repay the fare and all of the TOCs reasonably incurred costs in dealing with this, in order to dispose of the matter without Court action so as to protect his good name. They may well agree, but of course they are not obliged to do so.

 

The OP may of course seek the services of a qualified Lawyer, which will add considerable cost, but in the initial stages of a case like this they can do little more than a reasonably articulate, but not argumentative person can do for themselves. The key thing in all these cases is not to attempt to apportion blame elsewhere. That kind of response almost always hardens the prosecutors attitude and results in a Court hearing that might otherwise be avoided.

 

If the TOC decide to go to Summons the Legal Advisor at any Court hearing will usually allow a little assistance for the litigant in person, but if a Summons is issued, I suggest that's when it's definitely worth engaging a solicitor who deals with criminal matters local to the Court at which any case is to be heard

 

The OP is a long way away from that point as yet and might prepare himself whilst waiting for the letter from the TOC.

[RugbyKEv]

Thank you Old-CodJA, and everyone else.

 

I took your advice on board but thankfully it's all turned out to be moot. SWT sent letters to both my wife and I over the weekend. My letter was a, it has to verify said, very mild, telling off. My wife's informed her of what had happened, reminded her of the t's & c's and advising her to collect her ticket from any swt station.

 

We were flabbergasted and extremely relieved. I'm starting my new commute today, needless to say using my own newly acquired ST.

 

Thank you all. I'll make a donation to the site in the next day or two.

 

Thanks again

 

Kev

[king12345]

Wow, that's great!

Possibly they took a milder approach because you hadn't travelled yet and they thought it was a one off incident.

Good for you

[honeybee13]

That's good news, Kev, I'm pleased for you. Thank you for letting us know.

 

I'll amend your title to show the outcome, it's always useful for other people with the same problem.

 

HB