Syria

[tobyjugg2]

i see what you mean?; russia etc pro assad, turkey anti assad (and anti kurd), US now helping turkey on the ground (US were/still are helping the kurds and 'moderates'?), Saudis want Russia etc out and support the US, Russia v US, all whilst the vienna 'peace' talks wanting 'official' involvement to remove assad...where are the UK in all this

 

and thats not even close to the half of it.

 

Where is the UK:

If it wasn't for the threat (bluff or not) chilcott report and the Blair witch project (- err hunt) on top of the simple fact that intervention there is a war of aggression, the UK would be Americas friend as usual.

 

Turkey, Kuwait and the Sauds (well some of the sauds) will be pressing for some sort of compromise that leaves them with buffer zones at their borders.

These three (and at least one other) must be really crapping themselves now. Their crap is on its way home.

 

If ISIS is significantly beaten in Iraq. Iran and Syria, they will explode in Saudi Arabia and perhaps come into direct conflict with Pakistan amd the Afghan Taliban.

 

There is now more significant imminent risk of civil war in Turkey and Saudi Arabia - there always was but it would have been after the fall of Syria.

 

Only Iran really wins in this Saudi/US driven mess.

If this isn't what the US wants, the US need to fill Guantanamo with their traitorous or criminally negligent strategists and advisors.

... or perhaps just the politicians who chose to ignore them ...

Edited November 2, 2015 by citizenB

[tobyjugg2]

Turkish president Erdoğan: I can't condemn the Islamic State for shooting down the Russian airplane as it is the natural outcome of Putin's support for Assad

 

"The Russian airplanes are targeting Mujahidin in Syria and partisans fighting to topple Syrian dictator Assad. In Syria, Moscow seeks to tip the balance on the ground against our brethren. Consequently, there should be no surprise if Islamic State take revenge,"

Dubai TV cited the Turkish official as saying.

 

http://awdnews.com/top-news/turkish-president-erdo%C4%9Fan-i-can-t-condemn-the-islamic-state-for-shooting-down-the-russian-airplane-as-it-is-the-natural-outcome-of-putin-s-support-for-assad

 

 

 

Note:

What actually happened to the plane is as yet unconfirmed.

[Conniff]

Why don't they wait until the official report from the black boxes before jumping to conclusions. I know the airline would like that to be the reason.

[obiter dictum]

Agreed

 

Especially with the Chillcot report coming out soon and dodgy inteligence dossier

[tobyjugg2]

Odds seem highest of an explosion on board.

 

Very worrying for many reasons if it was a surface to air missile, even if if was fired from the top of a mountain.

http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/07/exclusive-libyan-missiles-looted/?hpt=hp_t2

 

Stupid comment from Erdogan if it is reported accurately, but shines a brighter light into some dark areas.

[Guest]

and thats not even close to the half of it.

 

Where is the UK:

If it wasn't for the threat (bluff or not) chilcott report and the Blair witch project (- err hunt) on top of the simple fact that intervention there is a war of aggression, the UK would be Americas friend as usual.

 

...

 

the Committee says no go/vote to the PM re extending into syria

a 'left wing blog' view re, not Corby's?

http://leftfootforward.org/2015/11/trying-to-destroy-isis-by-only-attacking-it-on-the-iraqi-side-of-the-border-makes-no-sense/

[tobyjugg2]

Us leaks indicate large heat signature emanating from plane at moment of loss of contact with Russian civilian plane over sinai.

[obiter dictum]

Be this a bomb or not, people have no right to draw such public speculative conclusions without any evidence to the contrary

 

Even the Russians are saying such claims of a bomb are speculative at this time

 

Egypt has criticised the UK decision, accusing the government of making "a premature and unwarranted statement" on the crash.

 

We are talking of a countries entire economy (Tourism) being put at risk

 

For all we know it could have been a fuel leak that caused a catastrophic explosion

 

Aviation fuel explodes in an instance and exstinquishes itself just as quick following that explosion

 

I am not saying that is what happened but let the flight recorders tell the real story first to give peace of mind to the relatives first instead of whipping everyone up into a frenzy

 

But i have to ask

 

What has a plane crash in Egypt got to do with Syria with no evidence to the contrary??

Edited November 5, 2015 by obiter dictum

[tobyjugg2]

What has a plane crash in Egypt got to do with Syria with no evidence to the contrary??

 

other than the simple fact that an ISIS affiliated group immediately claimed (rightly or not) responsibility and justified it as retribution for Russias actions in Syria ?

 

,,, quite a bit other than that, but I think its a good starter,

[tobyjugg2]

Quite an informative summary from huff

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/isis-sinai-egypt_563a7cafe4b0b24aee48b615?utm_hp_ref=uk&ir=UK&section=uk

[obiter dictum]

And what again our own media is not reporting is that:

 

Russia has not suspended any of its domestic commercial airline flight in and out of the region

 

Considering it was one of their own planes that crashed

[tobyjugg2]

And what again our own media is not reporting is that:

 

Russia has not suspended any of its domestic commercial airline flight in and out of the region

 

Considering it was one of their own planes that crashed

 

and it was OUR extra security 'issues' which were apparently resolved earlier this year ...

 

but I probably would have done the same as Cameron.

 

Some reports of further security issues starting to emerge from Egypt.

[buckthorn]

I know ISIS has claimed responsibility for bring this plane down,

but just to throw a spanner in the works, has anybody considered

that the plane could have been blown up, by some body in retaliation

for the Russian’s bring down the Malaysian plane over Ukraine with a

massive loss of life???

[obiter dictum]

I know ISIS has claimed responsibility for bring this plane down,

but just to throw a spanner in the works, has anybody considered

that the plane could have been blown up, by some body in retaliation

for the Russian’s bring down the Malaysian plane over Ukraine with a

massive loss of life???

 

That is pure speculation with no definitive proof to the contrary

 

That still has to be proven that it was Russian troops and not the so called rebels that brought down that plane over the Ukraine and ISIS will say they did every possible Ill deed going for propaganda purposes, true or not

Edited November 6, 2015 by obiter dictum

[buckthorn]

I never said anything about proof, you did.

I said I was throwing a spanner in the works

food for thought.

And as far as Russia being responsible for

bring down the Malaysian plane what proof do you want

a signed statement?????

ever heard the term cloud cuckoo land.

[obiter dictum]

If proof was there that Russian forces were responsible for bringing down that commercial airliner then they will be hauled in front of the UN Security Council

 

As i said

 

Pure speculation and Bovine Excrement until proven otherwise

[Conniff]

What proof do you need, KGB dictator Putin ordered it. Of course it was the Russians, he ordered his troops into Ukraine, he supplied them with the weapons then sat in the bath laughing as the news was announced.

 

Next you will be saying he hasn't stolen Crimea.

[Conniff]

And what again our own media is not reporting is that:

 

Russia has not suspended any of its domestic commercial airline flight in and out of the region

 

Considering it was one of their own planes that crashed

 

Russia has ordered the suspension of all flights to Egypt following indications that the crash near Sharm el-Sheikh was caused by a bomb.

 

President Vladimir Putin made the announcement after UK investigators said they believed a bomb was put in the plane's hold prior to take-off, killing all 224 people on board.

[obiter dictum]

Russia has ordered the suspension of all flights to Egypt following indications that the crash near Sharm el-Sheikh was caused by a bomb.

 

President Vladimir Putin made the announcement after UK investigators said they believed a bomb was put in the plane's hold prior to take-off, killing all 224 people on board.

 

They have now

 

Announced by RT 42 minutes ago

[tobyjugg2]

What gets me is that the Uk/France/US rhetoric including malcolm rifkind just on the news all say "Putin is only bombing the free syrian army" not ISIS

 

If that were the case then ISIS would be protecting Russian planes not bombing them.

 

 

 

I think this attack, if it is n ISIS attack, was very well planned and timed to coincide with the Egyptian dictators visit to the UK.

Many birds with one stone.

Russia, Egypt and any West/UK/Egyptian relations damaged in one fell swoop.

[Guest]

Ken Livingstone saying need boots on the ground (with all nation support, not just the west. ie the UN?) all round to defeat that group. ch4 news.

 

Apparently there is 'growing support' for uk 'action' in syria. bbc.

[tobyjugg2]

Ken Livingstone saying need boots on the ground (with all nation support, not just the west. ie the UN?) all round to defeat that group. ch4 news.

 

Apparently there is 'growing support' for uk 'action' in syria. bbc.

 

Western boots on the ground is not the answer.

 

France has an aircraft carrier heading to join the attacks

Putin has told Russian commanders to co-operate, share information and treat the French 'as an ally'.

... America has said it will work to 'speed up' its information sharing with the French.

 

Britain joining now would probably be the worst thing we could do unless it is as giving support to the French under French command - information and logistics support.

 

 

Reports from Raqqa (euronews and CNN) claim ISIS have started moving their families out of Raqqa ...

Now there is some refugees no-one wants

 

Americans squirming under questioning of why the French are finding so many targets when the Yanks couldn't or didn't.

[Guest]

Western boots on the ground is not the answer.

 

.

 

what about all round, ie the UN/NATO?

 

the beeb say that that group amounts to around to only 30,000. that seems an insignificant number, plus links/affiliates, but its what that 'tiny' number do in an instant eg paris/russian plane/africa/9-11/7-7/ etc.

[tobyjugg2]

what about all round, ie the UN/NATO?

 

the beeb say that that group amounts to around to only 30,000. that seems an insignificant number, plus links/affiliates, but its what that 'tiny' number do in an instant eg paris/russian plane/africa/9-11/7-7/ etc.

 

NATO?

Don't forget Turkey has been involved from the start and is a NATO member on the borders of the fight as well as being involved.

 

Paris and the Plane and events like those can be done by small groups with limited resources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction

 

How can so small a number of terrorists in ISIL can send western backed and armed Iraqi troops, trained Syrian troops and all the might and technology of America and the west running?

 

Because as is becoming clearer and clearer - America with the Sauds and Kuwaitis were shielding and supplying ISIS (as 'free syrians') not attacking them, while NATO Turkey was bombing Kurds rather than fighting ISIS.

Why do you think the French went in 'choosing their own targets from their own intelligence' even before the Paris attack.

France, like Russia is hitting the radicals and the yanks don't like it - squealing about free syrians being targeted - American BS that is quieting now the French (A full western security council member) are striking in earnest.

 

Britain joining in now supporting American goals and taking American flak and blame is the worst thing we could do.

I have an inkling Cameron knows all this as well as the French do despite his rhetoric, else why the vote he lost on Syria? - He probably breathed a sigh of relief at that.

He doesn't want the flack that would come solely on his own head.

 

There will be no UN approach as Russia (another security council member with veto) has clearly stated no intervention in Syria without the invite of the Syrian government.

I question whether the French would want an American drafted UN resolution either. The French dont need them and probably don't want them.

[Guest]

NATO?

Don't forget Turkey has been involved from the start and is a NATO member on the borders of the fight as well as being involved.

 

Paris and the Plane and events like those can be done by small groups with limited resources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction

 

How can so small a number of terrorists in ISIL can send western backed and armed Iraqi troops, trained Syrian troops and all the might and technology of America and the west running?

 

Because as is becoming clearer and clearer - America with the Sauds and Kuwaitis were shielding and supplying ISIS (as 'free syrians') not attacking them, while NATO Turkey was bombing Kurds rather than fighting ISIS.

Why do you think the French went in 'choosing their own targets from their own intelligence' even before the Paris attack.

France, like Russia is hitting the radicals and the yanks don't like it - squealing about free syrians being targeted - American BS that is quieting now the French (A full western security council member) are striking in earnest.

 

Britain joining in now supporting American goals and taking American flak and blame is the worst thing we could do.

I have an inkling Cameron knows all this as well as the French do despite his rhetoric, else why the vote he lost on Syria?

He doesn't want the flack that would come solely on his own head.

 

i see what you mean, re prior support etc and the politics. since the syrian army has had ground support from the ruskis, iranians, etc that group has been in retreat according to reports, so why not unite, in whatever form, temporarily and do what they all say that they want to do. sort the rest of the politics out after. though remnants will no doubt still remain. what should be done, i dont know, but something seemingly needs to be done further, posing the q's.