DVLA calling motorist liars and ripping them off

[Conniff]

Experienced motorists are being wrongly stripped of their entitlements, then find themselves unable to prove they ever passed their tests because the agency has deleted its records

 

We've had these complaints on here. I've posted this article in full in case it disappears from the newspaper:

 

For the past four months Shane Rae has been living under the threat of having his driving licence taken away – yet he has committed no offence and his 30-year driving record is unblemished. He has even been forced to retake his driving test and take on a solicitor to fight his cause. And the reason for all this? Rae, 45, moved house and sent his licence to the DVLA to amend his address.

 

It was returned minus his entitlement to ride a motorcycle – and when he complained he was warned that his car licence would be revoked as well because the government agency had no record of his qualification to ride a motorbike or drive a car.

 

Rae is one of hundreds of motorists who have found themselves stranded after sending their licence to the DVLA to have it amended, only to be confronted with a demand that they provide proof that they passed their test, even if they took it decades ago. He says the whole experience has left him feeling like a character in a Kafka novel – and adds that even the clout of the prime minister, who happens to be his local MP, hasn’t succeeded in getting the department to see sense.

 

 

The DVLA is already in the doghouse with many motorists after a new online system that affects people hiring a car was plagued by technical hitches earlier this month, and the emergence of this latest problem will only add to the pressure on the agency.

 

Rae told Guardian Money that he exchanged his Canadian licence for a full UK one in 2000 after submitting all the required evidence from the Canadian authorities, “and since then I haven’t incurred so much as a parking ticket”.

 

He adds: “When I complained about the missing motorcycle entitlement the DVLA told me it destroys supporting documentation for applications after 10 years and that it could therefore find no proof that I was ever entitled to drive, despite in a separate letter confirming that it had scrutinised my documents when amending my licence in 2004.

 

“I was told I would have to request evidence of my entitlements from the Canadian authorities – yet in the same breath the DVLA admits that Canadian driving records are destroyed if they remain dormant for more than 10 years.”

 

It turns out that Rae is far from alone. Paul Chapman, who runs a motorcycle training school, was one of the first to realise something was amiss after receiving dozens of calls from motorcyclists who’d had their entitlements removed after updating their licence.

 

“I’ve had couriers and HGV drivers come to me who have lost their jobs because of this, and 50-year-old bikers who have had a licence for 20 years until they applied to update it,” he says.

 

In its response to a freedom of information request submitted by Chapman, the DVLA insists it retains all driving entitlements on computer and microfiche, and destroys only the licence applications after a 10-year period.

 

The trouble is, it is the also-destroyed supporting documents provided alongside these applications that the DVLA insists on viewing when querying the validity of long-held licences – and the onus is on the motorist to provide them.

 

Chapman says: “I have had to create cheap, quick ways for these guys to take their test again in order to apply for a new licence, but you’re still looking at around £600. The DVLA’s attitude is that it never makes mistakes, and that if a driving entitlement drops off your licence it is up to you to prove that you ever took a test, when it is its job to store all that information. It’s almost worth getting a speeding fine every three years so that the police have a record of your licence.”

 

In the case of Rae, who works in publishing and lives in Oxfordshire, he has spent well in excess of £1,000 on retests and legal fees. His solicitor persuaded the DVLA to delay revoking his licence, which could have jeopardised his job, until he could retake his test. “The DVLA was in effect saying it was happy for me to carry on driving, even though it insists I don’t have a valid licence,” he says. However, he then discovered that possessing a full licence disqualified him from taking a driving test.

 

“The DVLA confirmed there is no way for me to take the test again unless it takes away my licence, so it has revoked it again for its computer system to then allow me to book a new test to replace the documents it admits it has seen but since destroyed,” he says. Rae adds that David Cameron has written to the agency on his behalf three times, “which as far as his office is concerned is unprecedented”.

 

There are fears the problems will worsen now the paper part of the licence has been abolished, along with tax discs, leaving motorists at the mercy of the agency’s digital records.

 

The DVLA has an online service that allows people to view their driving record – for example, vehicles they can drive and any penalty points and disqualifications – but this does not include historical information about previous entitlements, so it will be no use to those who are suddenly required to produce evidence of decades-old qualifications in order to keep their licence.

 

Another driver caught up in this is Steve Sylvester, 51, who lives in Derby and held an HGV licence and a motorcycle entitlement until he sent his paper licence to be swapped for a photocard in April. He was reissued with a provisional car licence.

 

 

It is almost worth getting a speeding fine every three years so that the police have a record of your licence

 

“I have held a full licence for 25 years and, as I worked as a security driver for Barclays, it had to be vetted by the police, who found no problem with it,” he says. “I sent the DVLA the make and model of the car I took my test in, as well as the name of the instructor and the driving school, but they demanded the test certificate that I sent them 35 years ago. My job was on the line because I need to be able to drive, so I had to pay £200 to take my driving test again and apply for a new licence.”

 

Meanwhile, it was a speeding fine that alerted Dave Knox, a 64-year-old teacher from Merseyside, to the fact his motorcycle entitlement had been omitted from a replacement licence. “I passed my test in 1972, but had to apply for a replacement licence when I lost the original on holiday,” he says. “A few years later I got pulled for speeding and the police confiscated my bike because it turned out the replacement licence didn’t include my motorcycle entitlement. When I complained to the DVLA, it told me I’d never passed my test.”

 

Knox received a court summons for riding a motorbike while unqualified, but his driving record provided by the DVLA was so full of errors – “it even suggested I’d had three licence changes in one day, which is an impossibility” – that the court ruled in his favour and his motorcycle entitlement was restored. “I got no compensation for being unable to ride my bike to work for six months, or for the £150 I had to spend insuring someone else to ride it from the police compound,” he says.

 

The DVLA told Money that it cannot issue licences in “good faith” alone. It declines to discuss individual circumstances, but says that in Rae’s case information came to light from Canada that cast doubt on his entitlement to drive. This information, according to the DVLA’s letters to Rae, is the fact that Canadian driving records are destroyed after 10 years of dormancy, so it can’t re-examine his certificate which allowed it to issue his UK licence in the first place.

 

The agency says it never removes valid entitlements and that rare errors are quickly corrected by checking its computer records. In 2010 it estimated that 2% of drivers’ records contained errors that were the fault of the DVLA, and between 2008 and 2010 it received 285 complaints that entitlements had gone missing. These figures are the most recent it has published.

 

 

The problem for motorists who reach an impasse with the agency’s customer services is that it is difficult to lodge a complaint with an independent third party. The DVLA can refer unresolved complaints to the Department for Transport’s independent complaints assessor (ICA), but motorists can’t apply for mediation directly, and the ICA only dealt with 93 DVLA complaints between 2013 and 2014.

 

The Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman also looks at complaints, but unhappy drivers have to ask their MP to contact the service on their behalf – which doubtless explains why the ombudsman has only taken on 14 complaints about the DVLA in the past 12 months. That is up from two in 2013, and a solitary investigation in 2012.

 

The ombudsman itself is dissatisfied with the system. “It’s very difficult for consumers to complain,” a spokesperson says. “We receive a lot of inquiries from people unhappy with their experience with the DVLA, but the vast majority haven’t approached us via their MP, so we have to redirect them, which whittles the numbers down a lot. We’ve been campaigning for years to make the process easier, and welcome the government’s proposals for a single public service ombudsman.”

[Conniff]

Why are they deleting any records while the person and the document is still extant. Delete them after 100 years and then you know the person is dead so the record no longer required.

 

It's all part of the DVLA lets make money scheme. This must be the most incompetent, (even delinquent), of all the government departments.

[unclebulgaria67]

This is probably down to very old data now being so corrupted on computer databases, that they are blind as to what entitlements people have. But the stupid thing is that the licence holder has their licence showing their entitlements, so DVLA is just going to have to use this information.

 

I have dealt with very old data on systems and it gets corrupted when there are system updates. Sometimes you lose the data and cannot get it back, if the previous system is not kept working or some records get deleted.

 

This is going to be a problem that will affect government records and I can see the same happening when people come to claim their pensions .

[DragonFly1967]

I can confirm from experience that the DVLA don't have a clue.

 

Take my licence as an example... I took and passed my motorcycle test around about 20 years ago. My licence (photocard) shows my motorcycle entitlement, so all good. Unless, you look on the DVLA's new Check My Licence service, which shows not only my FULL (and therefore correct) entitlement to ride a motorcycle, but also says that I have PROVISIONAL entitlement to ride a motorcycle.

[silverfox1961]

I always recommend that everyone photocopies their licence so that you have proof of entitlement. At every change of licence details. do it again.

 

As you don't need the paper counterpart anymore, keep that safe too. Never trust the DVLA with anything

[Mr.P]

Better still, if you have to send off for a replacement, keep hold of the old licence and tell them that it has been lost.

 

I still have my old pink licence from the days when a photo card was not required. This is stored in a safe place just in case DVLA decide that I'm not entitled to drive a particular category of vehicle.

[Conniff]

Better still, if you have to send off for a replacement, keep hold of the old licence and tell them that it has been lost.

 

I still have my old pink licence from the days when a photo card was not required. This is stored in a safe place just in case DVLA decide that I'm not entitled to drive a particular category of vehicle.

 

What do you mean 'just in case', shouldn't that be 'when'

[KrashBandikoot]

Long story but perhaps worth the read.

 

I'm one of the fortunate ones the DVLA has successfully managed to screw up but it's actually worked to my advantage.

 

Just to be clear, I passed my car test when I was 17 way back in mid 1980's and my bike test the following year long before the latest theory test and staggered motorcycle test [problem]s were introduced.

 

Anyway, being a bit of a lad I went through a period of shall we say I felt the requirement for things like road tax and insurance didn't apply to me, (yes I was young and stupid), so naturally I found myself in and out of court a lot as well as sending my licence back to DVLA due to disqualifications. Around 1996 I served my last ever disqualification which was 6 months and duly applied for my licence back, (at the time they were still paper licences), and to my horror found I have no motorcycle entitlement, only a provisional car but oddly a full Class 1 HGV entitlement despite never having taken a lesson let alone passed a test.

 

So DVLA backed down and I got my entitlements back. At the time I made the decision never to update my licence address and hang onto the licence I had in my hand. On stops with the police they seemed understanding as to why my current address wasn't on my licence and advised me to sort it out but didn't take any action.

 

Skip forwards to 2010 when I was once again stopped because the local police had a report I didn't have a full licence. I argued I had and was willing to produce my licence. Sadly I couldn't find it so was reported for failure to produce and driving otherwise in accordance with a licence.

 

I applied to the DVLA for a photo card licence who informed me they had no records of my ever having passed a test. So I offered an ultimatum, either they issue my licence as it should be, (full car and bike), or I would re-take the tests and then issue county court proceedings to recover the costs. DVLA then decided I wasn't who I'm claiming to be, (despite confirming my driving licence number(s) -- For whatever reason I have 3 of them even though this confuses the DVLA and myself somewhat -- and confirming my previous and current address.

 

So the matter goes to court and based on the evidence I presented, (I took the precaution of keeping the stop forms I'd been issued in the past by the police and presented the originals to the court), the case was thrown out.

 

So, 2 years go by with my arguing with the DVLA I am who I am and I should be issued a photo ID licence and them refusing on the basis I do not meet the "photo ID evidential requirements despite my application form bearing my photograph and my police officer neighbough signing my form to say that is me on the photograph), and it came to a stale mate with the DVLA refusing point blank to issue me with a photo ID licence on the basis I don't meet the ID requirements.

 

Skip forwards to October last year and I get nabbed by a camera van doing 68 on a 60 road. So I filled out the form, paid the £100 fine on line and explained why I couldn't offer my licence for the points to be added.

 

In May this year the safety camera team REFUNDED the £100 fine I paid and I've heard no more about it.

 

Also in Feb of this year I made a mistake, (due to really bad road signs), of driving the wrong way down a 1 way street straight into the 'arms' of a police officer. I was told I would be reported for driving otherwise in accordance with a licence and for driving the wrong way down a 1 way street. I was allowed to drive off, (the police officer actually stopped traffic for me), and go about my business.

 

I have yet to hear anything about that matter.

 

So in essence I've "got away" with technically 3 minor traffic offenses because the DVLA can't get it's act together. I have them on the run as having been found not guilty by a court I'm now in a position where I have proof I have indeed passed a test, (although the DVLA refuse to accept this proof regardless of it being from a magistrates court), so as long as I don't do anything really dumb they've made me immune to prosecution for minor offenses, (I add - Not that I will go out of my way to commit any. The speeding issue was just bad luck and the one way street was a genuine mistake. Even the police officer at the time said it happened 5 or 6 times a week on that particular street), purely because of their incompetence.

 

The bottom line here is the DVLA won't want to test my challenge to their records in a county court as such a decision is based on the balance of probabilities rather than absolute proof.

 

Also, one has to question WHY is the DVLA database is 'so accurate' WHY newly qualified drivers are now issued with a pass certificate they are allowed to keep as evidence of passing the test? If the database is so accurate why would there be a need for this? Simply put there wouldn't be any need at all but as we all know the DVLA is a law unto itself who makes its own rules as and when it pleases with no right of appeal or outside governing agency who drivers can turn to for help. All investigations are internal and of course biased in their favour.

 

My advice to anyone with an issue over entitlement is to argue the point with them. Keep every letter you have sent and every letter to get from them so if you do end up in court for whatever reason you have the evidence you have done all you can to resolve the situation.

 

Sadly for those with a licence in their hands, I'm sorry to say you're screwed as you can only drive based on the licence in your hand. I'm lucky because the DVLA won't issue me with one and they're powerless to revoke my licence as I can't present what they themselves won't issue.

 

If you do however have a licence in your hand and have to go through the test again. I'd strongly advise gathering a much evidence as you can to your previous entitlements. Go back to your driving instructor and ask them for a letter saying they gave you lessons and you used their car/bike to go through the test. Claw together anything you can, be it a letter as above, an old speeding endorsement, whatever you can lay your hands on to prove the DVLA has made a mistake then sue them in the county court for the costs for lessons, going through the theory test, passing the test again, time off work, loss of NCD, etc. If your insurance company took a copy of your licence, get them to issue you with another copy and a letter to say they took the copy of your licence.

 

A line has to be drawn with these clowns as they've been getting away with ripping people off by making them go through another test for way too long now. Make the DVLA accountable for its mistakes as it's all getting way out of hand.

[CrappoMan]

Or... just take a photocopy/photo of any documents you send to DVLA. That way you have proof that the documents/entitlements existed.

[king12345]

Hi guys, I've just become the victim of dvla.

I sent my eu licence to them to be converted to a uk licence with all supporting documents and just to be on the safe side, a translation of the licence made by an official translator.

Got the licence but they removed my motorbike entitlement

I called them and they confirmed that accordingly to their record I only have a motorbikes provisional licence.

I have been advised to send the licence back with a copy of the licence and translation that I duly photocopied before sending.

Would they fix it???

I'm fuming!

If they don't fix it, can i take them to court or I need to go through the motorbikes test again to prove a loss?