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Passenger Focus - "Dont treat us like criminals"


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http://www.itv.com/news/london/2015-02-06/southern-railway-admits-it-receives-up-to-5-000-complaints-a-day/

And every other newpaper you care to mention.

 

 

Any/all problems have to be brought on by the staff starting with the boss at the top.

 

 

If they cared, the number of complaints would have never reached that level and would be dropping.

And you could probably double that number by those who don't make a complaint.

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I am amazed that a management team member of any site that purports to try to actually help people who come seeking assistance, should be allowed to openly publish such opinionated drivel.

 

 

At the very least I would expect the management of such a site to offer only unbiased, well researched and most of all, wholly constructive offerings.

 

 

I suggest that if the site cannot do that then it has lost its legitimacy

 

 

One of those, 'I can't answer and have been caught out so lets try the embarrassment route' posts.

 

 

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the site or it's legitimacy, this is me speaking not the site.

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http://www.itv.com/news/london/2015-02-06/southern-railway-admits-it-receives-up-to-5-000-complaints-a-day/

And every other newpaper you care to mention.

 

 

Any/all problems have to be brought on by the staff starting with the boss at the top.

 

 

If they cared, the number of complaints would have never reached that level and would be dropping.

And you could probably double that number by those who don't make a complaint.

 

 

One of those, 'I can't answer and have been caught out so lets try the embarrassment route' posts.

 

 

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the site or it's legitimacy, this is me speaking not the site.

 

 

 

Nothing to do with embarrassment I'm afraid, your site marker identifies you as 'site team', but you don't offer anything constructive, just opinion.

 

Perhaps a direct quote from the actual article might help,

 

" It's not an easy job working in the complaints department of a major rail company - Southern has admitted it currently receives between 2,000 and 5,000 Tweets from passengers every day. The figure was revealed after a Twitter enquiry by a customer. Southern did say the messages were not all complaints. However, most of the messages sent to their Twitter account this morning were complaining about problems. The ongoing redevelopment of London Bridge station has caused disruption to the company's services."

 

Perhaps you might recognise that your quote, repeated here is a comment that is totally out of order:

 

This is all down to the staff and their attitude to customers.

 

 

You cannot continually blame all staff for your perception of any companies policies, whether a disatisfaction with a particular policy is justified or not. I do not agree with many of the policies of some companies, but they are not the fault of the staff who are employed by that company.

 

You might just as well say that Tesco staff have a bad attitude because they will not let me walk out with this week's shopping and say 'I'll pay next week' or some such similar silliness

 

This is reminiscent of the kind of rhetoric from notably 'anti-railway papers' such as the Daily 'Wail' - their journalists are never going to let a little thing like the truth get in the way of sensationalism.

 

We all recognise that there are a great many things that must be addressed and improved in the railways and steps are being taken - never fast enough nor exactly what the extremists want I know.

 

I've really had enough of these sort of generalised attacks on the vast majority of good people who try to do their best in extremely trying circumstances. Yes, just like any other industry, there are some 'bad apples in every barrel', but these generalisations do this site no credit whatsoever.

 

I don't blame 'the big boss' in this instance, but users who are identified as 'site team' management must understand that their comments are directly attributable to site if your opinion that the platform staff on a railway are guilty of the failings of their management is to be accepted. You cannot have it both ways.

 

I came to contribute to this site and others in a genuine attempt to offer suggestions that might help people who have a problem, to achieve a decent resolution where that can be realistically reached.

 

Perhaps you can explain, what useful purpose does your continued peddling of 'anti-rail company' propaganda, with no constructive advice appended, provide for the reader in a Consumer Action Group sense please?

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This is before this years annual rise.

 

Rail fares 1-10 miles

 

Britain........£17

Belgium......£7

Italy...........£4.79

France........£9.60

Poland........£2.87

 

 

Rail fares 100-150 miles

 

Britain........£96.50

Belgium......£16

Italy...........£16

France........£29

Poland........£9

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We all recognise that there are a great many things that must be addressed and improved in the railways and steps are being taken - never fast enough nor exactly what the extremists want I know.
Yes but it has been like this since privatisation in 1997, don't you think that is enough time?

 

 

Perhaps you can explain, what useful purpose does your continued peddling of 'anti-rail company' propaganda, with no constructive advice appended, provide for the reader in a Consumer Action Group sense please?

This isn't a thread with peoples quest for justice, this thread was specifically for moaning.

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This is before this years annual rise.

 

Rail fares 1-10 miles

 

Britain........£17

Belgium......£7

Italy...........£4.79

France........£9.60

Poland........£2.87

 

 

Rail fares 100-150 miles

 

Britain........£96.50

Belgium......£16

Italy...........£16

France........£29

Poland........£9

 

 

Everyone agrees that fares in Britain are generally too high, although without other comparators relative to the cost of living, lists of figures on their own do not tell the whole story.

 

In an effort to get back on thread, I believe that there are specific improvements that can be made in respect of a review of the Penalty Fares system, which is what has generated the Passenger Focus report and subsequent announcement of a consultation process and will be the first to say that changes are overdue.

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Yes but it has been like this since privatisation in 1997, don't you think that is enough time?

 

 

To be pedantic, the Passenger Focus report, which has helped to achieve a consultation on Penalty Fares & the rules involved, hence this thread and the opening post, deals with something that was written and introduced by the department for transport when BR ran the railways in 1989.

 

This isn't a thread with peoples quest for justice, this thread was specifically for moaning.

 

 

What is the value of moaning if the responses and subsequent action does not produce constructive alternatives to that which you are moaning about?

 

 

If the only purpose of this whole thread is to allow people to have a good moan, then we'd best leave those who come here expecting constructive comments to their own devices.

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I hate criticism of UK companies, I really would like us to be the best in the world, we were once and could be again if bosses got off their fat arses and looked at the company instead of the bonus.

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I hate criticism of UK companies, I really would like us to be the best in the world, we were once and could be again if bosses got off their fat arses and looked at the company instead of the bonus.

 

 

OK, so now perhaps you'd like to either apologise for, or retract this comment then?

 

 

This is all down to the staff and their attitude to customers.
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I can't retract them as where else do the problems come from except humans, it's not the rolling stock. Obviously there are some that contribute in a positive way and I applaud them.

 

 

Then say so rather than tarring 'company staff' with a broad brush as you have done in your earlier posts.

 

You unfairly accused me of 'embarrassment' and bad reaction at 'being caught out' as you put it when there is no evidence of any such fact.

 

Now it is clear for all to see that you cannot accept the consequences of your words & actions in creating such posts, but of course, neither can you escape the evidence of those posts.

 

Company policies are the responsibility of Directors, not the ground floor staff who simply go to their jobs and work as directed within those rules.

 

Yes, there may be some scope for application of discretion in some cases, but within the defined rules and in accordance with those policies, that scope is much more limited than you may think or I may desire.

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Anything I say is not aimed at one person but the whole rail system in general.

 

 

I know company policy is the responsibility of the top, but it is those who are on the front line who don't use simple common sense plus the criminal element of it all.

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Anything I say is not aimed at one person but the whole rail system in general.

 

I know company policy is the responsibility of the top, but it is those who are on the front line who don't use simple common sense plus the criminal element of it all.

 

 

I have noted your PM, and thank you, my comments are not meant to antagonise either.

 

My main concern is that it is unfair to expect staff to exercise a perceived discretion that they may not have.

 

The rules are absolutely clear. Management policy will be written perfectly clearly, but it is often the inconsistency in Directors & senior management reactions that leads to problems, not the actions of staff who are customer facing.

 

For example, let's say a train guard happens to be an authorised person who can issue Penalty Fare Notices (PFNs). The rules require that a PFN is issued if a traveller fails to comply with the strict liability requirement of Byelaw 18.1 (2005) and the company policy is to enforce the rules, so the guard carries out that instruction.

 

Now the passenger does not make a written appeal as instructed in print on the notice, but makes an exaggerated claim about the guard's 'attitude' in complaining to the company Customer Relations Dept. and frequently someone in CR management, under direction from above to minimise recorded complaints, castigates the guard for simply doing his or her job as instructed.

 

Dammed if he does and dammed if he doesn't. 'Customer' complaint if he does, rollocking for not doing his job if he doesn't. Fancy the job??

 

You are right, the fault lies at the very top in not ensuring consistency throughout management and by the companies across ATOC as a whole.

 

Responsibility for the criminal element lies with SRA and DfT who drew up the rules, not the rail companies.

 

I have also posed this question elsewhere:

 

What about the question of deliberate, pre-meditated fare evasion, by persons who are knowingly travelling without a valid ticket, intending to accept a Penalty Fare Notice from staff if detected, but with the intention of never responding further or never paying if an appeal is rejected??

 

How do you propose dealing with that?

 

It is clear that this is a very real problem identified by many of us who are actually engaged in dealing with the very complex issues in revenue protection in many areas.

 

If the sanction of a criminal prosecution were removed as the final deterrent, this problem will continue to grow and quickly.

 

So it is utterly wrong to use that broad brush and say:

 

This is all down to the staff and their attitude to customers.

 

That is all that I asked you to retract.

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Some of us maybe site admins but we are allowed to post in a personal capacity and "have a bit of a moan", I started the post to bring the PF report to peoples attention and not surprisingly people have added their opinion, I don't have an issue with this and of course if it was deemed unacceptable by other site admins then it could be moderated. Don't forget, everyone here including admins gives up their free time for no pay.

 

There are situations where giving incorrect legal advice can have drastic consequences but this post isn't like that, so I can't see a problem of see that anyone needs to apologise, people are generally feed up and annoyed with tocs, the fares, the service and the way they are treated.

 

Here is a bbc feature on the issue > http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31149024

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People who skip fares cost train operators more than £240m in lost revenue, according to the Association of Train Operating Companies (Atoc). It estimates that between 3% and 5% of all train passengers are travelling without a ticket or the right kind of ticket for their journey.

 

 

This is bull, something just made up. If you know the figures, then you know the people. If you know the people then target them. If you don't know who is not paying then you can't quote figures like that.

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I disagree with conniff on many things but not this one. It is impossible to prove how much money is lost through fare evasion. In any estimate there may well be an notsubstantial amount where no attempt at collection has been made. I was on a rain the other day where the train manager apologise that he could not sell tickets as his machine was broken. I got off at an unmanned station. What do you suggest i fo? The railway system in thus country is a disgrace. The suggestion made earlier that lower fares in Europe are due to lower wages and standards of living just do not stand up to scrutiny.

Any opinion I give is from personal experience .

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I think it might be impossible to exactly quantify how much is lost, however there are ways & means to estimate this.

 

Take, for instance, when a TOC places a barrier line at a station at a given time on a given day.

The local trains guards and station staff can state fairly knowledgably whether the traffic flows are 'usual' and the barrier staff know how many are reported for no ticket and the booking office can state how much takings are 'up' due to the line being there.

 

Multiply that by various blocks at various stations at various times of the day/week.

You don't have to do too much of that to see patterns and extrapolate the figures.

 

TOCs are businesses 1st & foremost, they are driven by profit, this means that no matter how many experienced staff tell them 'you are losing money' they won't spend upwards of £1 million recruiting revenue staff and putting barrier lines in at a station until the business case is proven.

That business case took over 2 years at Reading for example, and the reality of the evasion was actually 3 times that predicted, and thats including the number of people that got wise and found a way round the new barriers.

 

That doesn't mean the TOC definitely knows who individually is deliberately stealing or even if they are doing it regularly, but it makes a case for having more checks made or a permanent barrier line installed.

 

 

 

 

 

Unlike some others on this thread I can only give my opinion based on experience, admittedly not as long as some of the posters, but still enough that I am reasonably confident my views are accurate in the real world.

 

Staff on train and at stations have more of a 1-1 relationship with their regular passengers than they do with their managers, however as has absolutely clearly and correctly been said, even someone like an experienced RP manager (above an RPI) or guard is not allowed to use discretion in many cases where years ago they certainly would have.

If that makes them part of the problem then you really don't know what the problem is.

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I have to agree with conniff controversial post.

It is true that the rules are laid by higher management, but ground staff, namely rpi, can and should use their discretion.

I have seen pfs being issued to customers approaching the guard/rpi as soon as boarded the train because there was no ticket facilities at the station.

Are they under pressure to hit "targets"?

Maybe, or it's just the good feeling of being in a position of authority.

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I for one would like you see how many of the complaints to TOCs are either a) Network Rail related and thus out of their control and/or b) Completely unfounded complaints, made to try and worm their way out of pending consequences of their own error of judgement (such as Penalty Fare issues or prosecution issues)

 

You can't please all people all of the time and to be honest, and what I find disturbing is often the behaviour of customers of the railway. If I'm disgruntled I might air my views and complain, like we should do, but I've seen so many so called adults acting like petulant children when things aren't going their way I strongly believe that some of the complainants should take the time to look at their own behaviour before complaining about a staff member's.

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"You can't please all people all of the time ".

 

 

LOL, it would seem the railways, in all it's forms, aren't able to please anyone.

 

 

I do agree that some should take a look at themselves.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Case Study

Mrs B bought a season ticket from First Capital Connect (FCC) which included two complimentary tickets. As in previous years she requested these tickets online.

 

After allowing more time than usual for the complimentary tickets to arrive, Mrs B contacted FCC to complain. Apart from an automatic email response, Mrs B didn’t receive a reply. When FCC’s deadline for replying passed, she contacted Passenger Focus.

 

During the delay in processing Mrs B’s complimentary tickets FCC had changed over to Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR), which was unwilling to honour the offer.

 

We felt it was unacceptable that Mrs B’s issue and complaint had been dealt with so poorly. We discussed with GTR the importance of taking ownership of outstanding FCC complaints, which it had previously agreed with us to do.

 

After our involvement, GTR agreed to send £40 in rail travel vouchers as a gesture of goodwill. We had four similar cases and were able to agree suitable outcomes for each of them.

Passenger Focus homepage

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How disgusting. It costs them nothing to have honoured the complimentary tickets unless they had to bar two others from boarding and you can bet your life they wouldn't have had to.

This is the sort of attitude that brings them into disrepute.

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  • 1 month later...

Bus passengers continue to report good levels of satisfaction, according to this year’s Bus Passenger Survey (BPS). In this year’s survey of more than 47,000 passengers, around nine in ten were satisfied (88 per cent across the English areas covered and 92 per cent in the four Scottish areas covered). Passengers tell us that value for money is key to their satisfaction with a service, along with being able to get decent information and a friendly, helpful driver.

When bus companies act on the findings in the survey it has a direct result for passengers. We continue to hear where bus companies listen to what passengers said from our research, this can act a catalyst for real change. The bus company in the Isle of Wight listened to what passengers said from our research, and put new, bigger buses onto its Route 1 plus cutting some fares.

;)

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