Tories discuss stripping benefits claimants who refuse treatment

[dyfed]

Senior ministers now believe the rules should be reviewed in order to reduce the “huge” numbers of people who are declared unfit for work due to mental health problems.- The Sunday Telegraph

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/10964125/Tories-discuss-stripping-benefits-claimants-who-refuse-treatment-for-depression.html

[caro]

How's this for an idea? How about not making matters worse by making them fear that they are in danger of losing their limited income.

 

 

Why not just tell them to pull themselves together and get a (non-existent) job!! grrrrrrrr!!!!

[matt v atos]

Unberleaveable

[lenny100]

the nhs in my area will only give you 6 weeks of treatment and then your magicly all well again, but thats if you can wait up to 20 weeks just to get a assasment, and up to two years before treatment starts

[matt v atos]

I think the plan is If they can get you on meds then you are fit for work.

[antone]

I suppose this should serve as a reminder that even when a politician feels he has reached rock bottom, digging is always an option.

[dyfed]

“We know that depression and anxiety are treatable conditions. Cognitive behavioural therapies work and they get people stable again but you can’t mandate people to take that treatment,” the source said.- The Sunday Telegraph

 

 

"The source suggested that successful treatments could reduce the numbers of people with mental health issues claiming the benefits by up to 90 per cent."-The Sunday Telegraph

 

 

So the idea is to cut the number of mental health ESA claiments by 90% by sending them for CBT thus making more savings on the benefits bill.

This is the Tory counter to the recent changes they had to make for MH claimants with the WCA and making it easier for MH sufferers to get into the ESA group.

 

A final pilot scheme will assess the effectiveness of offering online tests and therapies at improving individuals’ health and job prospects.- The Sunday Telegraph

 

So these honerable ministers think that online therapies and tests will get us into work?

They have not got a clue. This is the nasty party at its worst.

[matt v atos]

Cognitive behavioural therapies work. Do they?

[stu007]

Correct me if I am wrong but for them to implement this would this not involve the Medical Profession and how could that Medical Profession legally well lets say force a patient to undergo certain treatment without there consent unless sectioned.

 

Every Single person is different and one treatment that may work for one individual may not work for another so an alternative treatment may be needed.

 

How are doctors going to implement this as NO doctor will give a 100% Guarentee as if they did and it went wrong well you can guess them getting sued.

[matt v atos]

What is likely to happen during a course of cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT)?

 

The first session of therapy will usually include time for the therapist and you to develop a shared understanding of the problem. This is usually to identify how your thoughts, ideas, feelings, attitudes and behaviours affect your day-to-day life.

 

You should then agree a treatment plan and goals to achieve and the number of sessions likely to be needed. Each session lasts about 50-60 minutes. Typically, a session of therapy is done once a week. Most courses of CBT last for several weeks. It is common to have 10-15 sessions but a course of CBT can be longer or shorter, depending on the nature and severity of the condition. In some situations CBT sessions can be done by telephone.

 

You have to take an active part and are given homework between sessions. For example, if you have social phobia, early in the course of therapy you may be asked to keep a diary of your thoughts which occur when you become anxious before a social event. Later on you may be given homework of trying out ways of coping which you have learned during therapy.

 

 

Are You Joking What the hell are they on for God sake give me a break.

[matt v atos]

In some situations CBT sessions can be done by telephone. Oh Yes!

[estellyn]

Er.....there aren't enough jobs for the healthy unemployed, so what exactly does this achieve? Are mystical jobs going to appear with understanding employers, unworried about previous mental health problems and happy to arrange a phased, supported return to work?

 

If this makes treatment available for those who want and need it then that would be good (it is really difficult to get mental health treatment and support), but I suspect it will be a pale shadow of proper therapy.

 

In my experience many with mental health issues would love proper support and treatment, they really want to get better. Does this government really believe that there are many thousands of ESA claimants refusing offered treatments? Idiots.....they simply have no idea of what goes on in the real world.

 

By all means provide proper mental health therapy and support, but stop with the threats of withdrawing benefits - any mental health professional will tell you that these therapies are unlikely to be successful when the patient/client is feeling so insecure.

 

Why not implement the system that was suggested before ESA began - a structured program of therapy, support, medications if appropriate and then a gradual reintroduction to the world of work when ready. Not some crappy internet 'therapy' and then thrown to the mental health ignorants at the work program.

[antone]

Of course, it's not particularly useful to look at a claimant (whether the problem is mental or physical, indeed) and then ask "is there any job they could possibly do?" Because there are many people with illnesses who could, perhaps, do some sort of hypothetical job that doesn't actually exist in real life.

 

The only question worth asking is "is there an actual job available for this person?" Would anyone employ them? That, to me, is the biggest issue with, say, the WCA. It's all very well to say "well, you could do some work." Many people could do something. But that's largely irrelevant. It's only useful to consider whether people could be employed to do actual work that's available in the real world.

[estellyn]

Of course, it's not particularly useful to look at a claimant (whether the problem is mental or physical, indeed) and then ask "is there any job they could possibly do?" Because there are many people with illnesses who could, perhaps, do some sort of hypothetical job that doesn't actually exist in real life.

 

The only question worth asking is "is there an actual job available for this person?" Would anyone employ them? That, to me, is the biggest issue with, say, the WCA. It's all very well to say "well, you could do some work." Many people could do something. But that's largely irrelevant. It's only useful to consider whether people could be employed to do actual work that's available in the real world.

 

Totally agree!

[The Dogg]

The only question worth asking is "is there an actual job available for this person?" Would anyone employ them? That, to me, is the biggest issue with, say, the WCA. It's all very well to say "well, you could do some work." Many people could do something. But that's largely irrelevant. It's only useful to consider whether people could be employed to do actual work that's available in the real world.

 

Spot on.

 

It absolutely galls me when anybody says to somebody with mental health issues (or any other disability for that matter) 'Oh, you can use a computer can't you?' or 'You could answer telephones maybe?' or whatever other stupid suggestion they care to make, without considering if there's enough of these jobs going round even for people without any potential barriers to work, and also if all of the employers offering them would suddenly be happy to make extra provision for employees who need extra help and support to sustain employment (and as we know, quite a lot of them unfortunately won't).

 

This idea of stripping benefits from anybody with mental health issues who refuses treatment is immoral, and (thankfully) unlikely to be put into law anytime soon....but it shouldn't even be at the stage of being discussed. We really are living in sad times if this is the direction our society's headed in.

[Conniff]

But wouldn't someone who is genuinely poorly 'want' to be cured ?

 

 

What are mental health issues ???

[Mr.P]

What are mental health issues ???

 

The catch-all diagnosis for anyone that doesn't conform to the norm. But hey, force these people to be treated, and once cured, shove them on to JSA. That will save £30 in benefits for each one, and after they have been sanctioned a few times, they'll lose entitlement for three years. More money saved.

 

No. The rhetoric coming out of the DWP and the ministers responsible is just plain nasty and has a single goal at its heart. Stigmatise further anyone claiming ESA and pave the way for future changes in the system.

[Conniff]

I still haven't a clue what it is ?

[SabreSheep]

How about introducing "Critical Reasoning" into the school ciriculum before pupils take their options so that they develop a real method of looking at the world in a adult way. (think it might help them make life choices that reduce social issues we currently have) In essense giving everyone the chance to take a basic course in CBT to help them MANAGE issues later in life.

 

How about understanding that a lot of ESA claiments have been MADE ILL by the DWP

 

How about stop blaming the results on the victims and instead reviewing the system.

 

Another diabolical attempt to shovel the unwelcome statistics somewhere else instead of dealing with the real problem.

 

DEATH ON OUR HANDS tories - this will KILL PEOPLE

[Old Cogger]

Wonder if they are trying to divert attention to their own need for medical examinations (i.e. Normal People), as they come up with a lot of scrapping of the rock bottom barrel and then give themselves a large pay rise, = Do As We Say Not As We Do!

[Lilly_Monroe]

Cognitive behavioural therapies work. Do they?

 

Depends on the illness and the person themselves.

Did not work for me I needed more intensive treatment.

It is criminal for outsiders to mess with MH problems many of these people are already in a mess without added pressure.

 

Also what jobs are we meant to take up - that is the sixty four million dollar question.

 

I was reading on another forum where someone did not tell her employer she suffered from MH problems when they found out they threatened to sack her because they feared she would be off ill on to many occasions.

 

I watched a disturbing programme the other evening on how America treats its mentally ill patients - they send them to jail and lock them up.

For thousands of MH ill people this is their ONLY place of refuge, as there is NO money or facilities to treat them anymore.

So from bi polar, schizophrenics, self harmers you name it they get sent down for being ill. some even die in there from lack of support/understanding.

MH treatment has gone back to the dark ages in the US - is this the way we are heading.

 

I seriously doubt there is enough funds or trained MH specialists to be able to see everyone who is registered as suffering MH problems, unless of course the 'ATOS' replacement force are going to carry it out.

[Guest]

I would like to put my tuppence worth in here......I have bipolar disorder amongst other health problems. I had 12 MONTHS of CBT sessions of 1 hour each, at first they were weekly, then after 8 sessions it went to one every other week, after about 6 months they were then every 3 weeks but had to be put back to every other week as I struggled. Also this was all on a one to one basis with a psychiatric nurse of 40yrs qualified experience. I was lucky to get all this, it was rare. The reason I got it was that the same team had misdiagnosed me 2yrs previously and felt some guilt at my suffering. However, I was glad back in 2009 for the help. As well as all this therapy, I was put on mood stability medication, topped up with depression and anxiety meds, all to AID the therapy techniques. I was told by the senior psychiatrist that there is no cure, and despite all this therapy technique and meds I would still be bipolar forever, and all this help was given to assist me in learning to live with it and hopefully manage it better than before.

 

5 years on.........I find the therapy techniques help when I can do them, but my other health problems affect my ability to do them, and things can and do often unravel quite quickly. Meds alone, therapy alone.....or both together.....do not guarantee a complete recovery, or fitness to work. I am evidence of that.

 

I cant help but feel this is just yet another scare tactic/bullying threat......that will not be functional in reality. Maybe another desperate tory try as atos have failed to do the dirty work, and tribunals have shown the failures in the system. I won mine in 2011 after almost 18 months of waiting. Thankfully so far since then they seem to be leaving me be. My latest report via atos/dwp states a recovery unlikely in the long term.

[Lilly_Monroe]

I am one of the lucky ones - try getting good treatment for MH issues, it is none available or long waiting lists in some areas.

My help has been my life line, but it does not work for everyone.

Some people DO NOT want to talk about their illness, for reasons known only to them - should they be forced to seek help because some clueless tells them they must.

 

Having MH issues is horrendous, how anyone can think we make it up is beyond me.

[Nystagmite]

Spot on.

 

It absolutely galls me when anybody says to somebody with mental health issues (or any other disability for that matter) 'Oh, you can use a computer can't you?' or 'You could answer telephones maybe?' or whatever other stupid suggestion they care to make, without considering if there's enough of these jobs going round even for people without any potential barriers to work, and also if all of the employers offering them would suddenly be happy to make extra provision for employees who need extra help and support to sustain employment (and as we know, quite a lot of them unfortunately won't).

 

Many people forgot that it's not just a case of using a computer. It seems they miss the fact that many may not even be able to get to work, get up at a reasonable time, feed themselves, get dressed, etc.

 

Those who do refuse treatment, generally have good reason to do so. I was offered medication, which I refused. I don't always remember to take it, I may not remember that I have taken it and then there's the awful side effects...

[Lilly_Monroe]

I won my mandatory reconsideration to move to the support group a few weeks ago (that was my lottery win).

 

When I went to last see my WP I panicked and wretched up in their office, the stress of all the people on the bus, in the town the waiting outside for the office to open after lunch I was terrified.

I would have signed my life away that day to get out of that place - the pressure for what amounted to a few questions was unbearable.

It took my CPN to get the depth of my illness over to the DWP.

 

I am trying to take small steps to get my life back (or some of it) I know I could not handle any outside intimidation and hope this really is just scare mongering.