Marston Bailiffs removed car illegally, now they're pursuing me again even though they have my car!!! Help please!!!?

[nikkikitch]

The complaint is now with the LGO. They have all of the previous correspondence along with the confirmation of charges and whereabouts of my car letter that i received today.

 

How can a local government act illegally like this? If there are clear regulations in place in relation to fees, how can they get away with applying the!?. Is it because most people don't challenge them!?

 

If I don't receive a satisfactory response from the LGO I will speak to a solicitor about going to small claims. From what I can now gather, i have a good case!

[HCEOs]

It's good to see that you are going to speak to a solicitor before issuing proceedings as I'm not sure your case is as clear cut as you think.

 

You may find the advice is that asking for an assessment of the fees is the first route to go, prior to issuing any claim.

[nikkikitch]

Will see what the LGO come back with first.

[nikkikitch]

So I have a letter from Marstons confirming the amount they are pursuing me for AGAIN and guess what, it's the exact amount of the original liability order £551.46. WHAT A JOKE!

Surely this is harassment now!?

[lookinforinfo]

If £551 is not a misprint, it may be that they have added the new £265 charge to the outstanding bill of £293.16. I accept that there is a difference of £6.70. Of course they should not be adding the new charge to your bill.

Have you told the Council and the bailiffs that you have a complaint in with the LGO for maladministration by the Council.

[nikkikitch]

Hi

 

Just to clarify, the bailiff told me the amount outstanding was £217 but the council have confirmed that the original liability order was for £551.46 and insisted that this is the information I was given by the bailiff. It wasnt but i cant be bothered arguing over that bit!

 

The fact still is, they took a car worth way more than it was sold for, that more than covered the original debt! And it was taken by someone who wasnt authorised to do so and now I'm being pursued AGAIN for that debt.

 

Can't wait to go to the press

[nikkikitch]

Hi all,

 

I've finally had a response from the LGO.

 

 

They aren't taking action against the council which i find ludicrous.

 

 

The council have changed their story a number of times and haven't been able to answer some of the LGO questions

but they've aren't taking action,

 

 

I have been advised that I should take legal action against the bailiff company for the illegal charges.

 

I am going to send a LBA but am struggling knowing what to claim for in terms of damages.

 

 

I have been without my car for a year and a half!

Do i calculate all the additional public transport costs i've had?

 

I have spoken to a couple of solicitors but they can't help because the case probably won't be worth over £10,000 and their fees will be high so not worth it.

 

Any more advice on the best thing to do, it's just a drain the whole thing!

[dx100uk]

if you had to lease a car it would cost.........

[HCEOs]

I'm afraid to say that you really do need to take legal advice here.

 

Getting this wrong could quite easily see you with a hefty bill for your opponent's legal costs.

 

The fact that the LGO and Council reject your claims won't help your cause either.

 

This might be one to put behind you and move on.

[HCEOs]

A few points to add (apologies if it's been covered already)...

 

Despite dx100uk's comment you could only claim for actual damages and not made up one's as per BH Forum.

 

Goods are sold at auction and often only fetch a small percentage of their retail value (A £2500 car will often go for £800 without keys and history).

 

On the levy, if the vehicle was the only asset available to the bailiff then it is not considered an excessive levy. It could have been a private jet and the same would apply.

 

My advice is still that you need to move on and forget this unpleasant episode.

[Bailiff Advice]

Hi all,

 

I've finally had a response from the LGO.

 

 

They aren't taking action against the council which i find ludicrous.

 

 

The council have changed their story a number of times and haven't been able to answer some of the LGO questions

but they've aren't taking action,

 

 

I have been advised that I should take legal action against the bailiff company for the illegal charges.

 

I am going to send a LBA but am struggling knowing what to claim for in terms of damages.

 

 

I have been without my car for a year and a half!

Do i calculate all the additional public transport costs i've had?

 

I have spoken to a couple of solicitors but they can't help because the case probably won't be worth over £10,000 and their fees will be high so not worth it.

 

Any more advice on the best thing to do, it's just a drain the whole thing!

 

I am sorry but I cannot respond in depth for a couple of hours (very busy day indeed!!). I will read back on your posts when I get home but from a quick glance the local authority should have come under criticism from the LGO for their failure to respond to the Formal Complaint. Are you able to mention which LA this is?

[Bailiff Advice]

Hi all,

 

I've finally had a response from the LGO.

 

They aren't taking action against the council which i find ludicrous.

 

The council have changed their story a number of times and haven't been able to answer some of the LGO questions but they've aren't taking action,

I have been advised that I should take legal action against the bailiff company for the illegal charges.

I am going to send a LBA but am struggling knowing what to claim for in terms of damages.

I have been without my car for a year and a half!

Do i calculate all the additional public transport costs i've had?

Any more advice on the best thing to do, it's just a drain the whole thing!

 

I have now read back on all the pages to get a clearer picture.

 

First, having the LGO reject your complaint is not a good sign and will make any county court claim more difficult. Just so that you are aware, copies of all LGO decisions are now public documents and appear on the LGO website. They appear 3 months after the decision is made.

 

Secondly, it would seem that your main complaint is that the 'levy' had been excessive given that you believed that the vehicle had been valued at £2,500 and the debt was just £217. Unfortunately, for over a year you had posted that the debt to the council had been £217 and only a few months ago posted that the figure had been wrong and that the correct amount was more than double this figure at £541.

 

When the bailiff gained entry to the property he collected up a number of items (work laptop, sons laptop, tv, hoover, my sons x box ,books, games, and mobile phone) and asked you to sign a form. You stated that you refused to sign the form (which I am assuming was a Walking Possession Agreement). I am afraid to say that as the debt to the council at that time was £541 (and not £217) these items would not in any way cover the debt and if they had off been taken the bailiff could have found himself subject to a serious complaint on the basis that he would have been removing low value items !!!

 

At the time of the removal of the car the bailiff estimated it's value as being £1,300 and it seems that it sold for £1,100 which is about right (in particular given that you provided the keys and log book). Personally I cannot see that the levy was 'excessive'.

 

The fees do not seem right to me (in particular the auction fee) and whilst I would argue at the 'waiting time' I have been disappointed to find too many cases where Judge's fail to find fault with such a fee !!!

 

By all means issue legal proceedings but before doing so I would suggest that you write to the enforcement company outlining the actual fees that you disagree with and asking for a refund.

 

Lastly, on the matter of taking proceedings in the County Court. It is no secret that I have a commercial business and in this respect in the past week I have received two enquiries from debtors who have issued county court claims seeking refunds and in both cases, they have heard from the court that the applications are being listed as being for Detailed Assessment. Both debtors are extremely concerned as they could well find themselves hit by the other parties costs.

 

There are numerous websites which 'claim' court victories. It is noteworthy that when it comes to actual evidence......these so called successes are 'private' ones and evidence cannot be provided.

[nikkikitch]

Hi

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

Just to clarify, the LGO didnt reject my claim, they said because it was a financial matter against the bailiff company, i would need to seek legal advice. It says in the letter, the LGO cannot normally investigate a complaint where court action can be taken. My complaint is in relation to the conduct of the bailiffs and illegal fees, which would be a matter for the courts.

The other issue that the LGO investigate was the certification of the bailiffs. I asked Marstons for proof of their certification at the time and they told me the bailiffs were certificated on the company. I asked for this proof in every stage of my complaint and it was never produced. The LGO asked for copies of the certificates in their investigation and miraculously two certificates were produced. At the time, i checked both the bailiff register and with Manchester County Court and neither bailiff were registered yet Marstons claim both were registered at Manchester.

 

I understand that my main issues are with the bailiff company but i cannot understand how the council arent responsible for their actions in this, listed below:

 

At the time, whilst i was technically self employed, i was in receipt of housing benefit as Im a single parent. They can see that there is a child on my claim.

My complaint was initially ignored.

The council changed their story (in writing), the original debt WAS £217 but after the LGO got involved that figure miraculously changed to justify the removal and sale of the car.

The £541 was from a joint council tax bill, my housemate at the time was named on the account yet at no point did they pursue her. Even though they had her new address. ,

 

In relation to the fees, lets say that the original debt was the £541, plus LEGAL bailiff charges that equates to around £680-£700. My car was sold for £1,100 meaning they owe me around £400!

 

The bailiffs gained illegal entry to my house, there are tons of other issues around this, its not just as simple as taking an excess levy. I cant understand how I'm left so powerless in this and it might be better for me to drop it! Really!?

[Bailiff Advice]

Nikki.

 

Thank you for responding so quickly.

 

Can I say at the outset that I have not stated that you should drop the matter. I was merely trying to outline some difficulties that you could face. If I was to see evidence of court successes I would of course change my opinion. I have seen none.

 

Your reply has once again highlighted problems with the Bailiff Register and it does now seem that both bailiffs were properly certificated. You say above that the complaint that you have at present is concerning the 'conduct of the bailiff' and 'illegal fees'.

 

The matter of the 'conduct' of the bailiffs is one that is normally for a 'Form 4' Complaint. Such a complaint was changed on 6th April 2014 and is now referred to a an EAC2 Form Complaint.

 

Unfortunately, the new regulations state very clearly that complaints may only be made on the 'fitness' of the bailiff to hold a certificate. In other word, the complaint needs to be of such seriousness that the court have to consider removing the certificate from the bailiff and thereby removing his right to ever work again as a bailiff. Very few such orders were granted before 6th April and from enquiries that I have made no such orders have been made by the courts since the new regulations came into effect.

 

In fact, almost no EAC2 Complaints have been made to the courts since 6th April. That is a fact.

 

On the matter of the fees....my personal thoughts are that you should write to the bailiff company and outline to them the fees that you consider are wrong (and the reason) and ask for them to be refunded. You need to be very clear with the reason for disputing the fees and in your letter state that unless the matter can be resolved that you intend taking the case to the County Court.

 

Lastly, you have said above that at the time the vehicle was removed that you were "technically self employed". Can you explain what you mean by this? Did you provide evidence of your self employment to the bailiff company or did you merely tell them that you were self employed?

 

PS: I agree with you about the local authority but clearly the LGO do not. That is obviously a problem.

[nikkikitch]

Sorry don't get me wrong, I really appreciate your advice, I'm just baffled by it all.

 

To clarify, I was registered as self employed at the time yes and i told the bailiff this. I just wasn't in receipt of any income at that time. They took my company details and checked to see if i had assets under that company so yes, they were well aware that i was self employed!

 

I find it miraculous that it took a year and a half to produce the certificates. I would question the authenticity to be honest!? Why were they not produced when i raised my initial complaint and asked specifically for that information? I still havent seen copies!

[ploddertom]

 

Just to add, my car is currently offf the road with no tax or MOT as it needs some repairs which i havent had the money to complete. The bailiff argued well in that case, i couldnt need it for work or to drive my son!

 

This will be the reason your car could be taken. Post 8 June 2013.

[nikkikitch]

But it was about to go in to the garage and on private property, not on a road or pathway?

[nikkikitch]

And in any case, the charges are still illegal!?

[ploddertom]

But it was about to go in to the garage and on private property, not on a road or pathway?

 

I'm afraid that in my view it was easy prey. Being unusable made it a target as you could neither use it for busines or anything else.

[ploddertom]

And in any case, the charges are still illegal!?

 

That's as maybe and note the hassles you are still having over them. If being given the runaround then it might be time to serve a Subject Access Request on both Bailiffs & Council. have you considered involving your local Councillor(s) to intervene?

[nikkikitch]

I haven't gone down that route yet no, do you think it would help?

[Bailiff Advice]

But it was about to go in to the garage and on private property, not on a road or pathway?

 

Nikki

 

I am not sure whether you are aware but a bailiff is legally allowed to remove goods on your driveway. This is not considered 'private property'.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, 'private property' would consist of the following:

 

Your neighbours driveway

 

A private car park

 

Motorway services

 

Out of town Shopping Outlets

 

Hospital Car Parks

 

Supermarket car Parks

[Bailiff Advice]

And in any case, the charges are still illegal!?

 

I did address this point in my post number 89 and I really do think that my suggestion is the correct one. You need to identify the fees that you consider are wrong and the reason why and write formally to the enforcement company to request a refund and an explanation for the fees. If you need help putting something together I could probably draft something for you to work on.

[nikkikitch]

I understand i need to write to the bailiff company about the fees, but i am still confused about the other points raised in my initial complaint which havent been acknowledged by the council or Marstons.

 

The bailiffs gained entry in an illegal way

The bailiff did not leave me with a form 7 notice of seizure form 8 notice of removal or form 9

I asked to see the warrant but the bailiff was unable to produce it

The bailiff abandoned the levy by clamping the vehicle then leaving

There was no written warning of the intention to levy on my vehicle

They took a tool of my trade (OK this is arguable, but is still the case!)

I offered payment, they chose to take the car and have profited from their actions

Their certification might be bogus, in which case their whole course of action is invalid and illegal!?

I was threatened with arrest if i did not hand over items that did not belong to me

The bailiff took my phone off me, which is illegal

I was threatened with violence if i did not hand him my phone, this is illegal and the police woman stood there and did nothing

 

My complaint was ignored, the council have lied and changed their story twice in writing about the reasons for their course of action. i have spent hours and hours on the phone and writing emails in relation to the matter yet all i COULD be entitled to is the £400 in illegal fees!?

 

This just seems unbelievable to me!

[Bailiff Advice]

I understand i need to write to the bailiff company about the fees, but i am still confused about the other points raised in my initial complaint which haven't been acknowledged by the council or Marstons.

 

The bailiffs gained entry in an illegal way

The bailiff did not leave me with a form 7 notice of seizure form 8 notice of removal or form 9

I asked to see the warrant but the bailiff was unable to produce it

The bailiff abandoned the levy by clamping the vehicle then leaving

There was no written warning of the intention to levy on my vehicle

They took a tool of my trade (OK this is arguable, but is still the case!)

I offered payment, they chose to take the car and have profited from their actions

Their certification might be bogus, in which case their whole course of action is invalid and illegal!?

I was threatened with arrest if i did not hand over items that did not belong to me

The bailiff took my phone off me, which is illegal

I was threatened with violence if i did not hand him my phone, this is illegal and the police woman stood there and did nothing

 

My complaint was ignored, the council have lied and changed their story twice in writing about the reasons for their course of action. i have spent hours and hours on the phone and writing emails in relation to the matter yet all i COULD be entitled to is the £400 in illegal fees!?

 

This just seems unbelievable to me!

 

 

I will do my best to answer your points. I will first deal with the notices.

 

Form 7 is the Notice of Seizure but Form 8 is a Walking Possession Agreement. You stated in your earlier posts that the bailiff asked you to sign a form but that you refused to do so. Was the form a Walking Possession? If so, and you refused to sign it then I am afraid that the bailiff is permitted to immediately remove goods.

 

With council tax arrears a physical 'warrant' is actually not provided for in the regulations.

 

No...the bailiff most certainly did not 'abandon' the levy by clamping the vehicle. This is sadly a misconception and seems to have gained prominence over the internet.

 

On the point of you not being given any written warning of the intention to levy upon the vehicle I am sorry but under the previous regulations (before 6th April 2014) there was no provision for a bailiff company to send a letter before attending the premises to 'levy' upon goods. Instead, you should have received a letter from the council advising that a Liability Order had been granted and warning that the account would be sent to a bailiff if unpaid within 14 days.

 

Tool of the Trade is a difficult one.

 

What payment did you offer on the day? This could also be a problem given that at the time you thought that the debt to the council was only £217 when it was really over £500.

 

On the matter of being threatened with arrest.....this is for the police to address and not the local authority or bailiff company.

 

You have said that seizing a mobile phone is illegal. Can you elaborate.