Unsuccessful Appeal of PCN - Can I appeal again or do I have to await NTO

[Jamberson]

You said:

 

Although the pcn does say that representations will be considered, it fails to make the recipient aware of the period of time they are lawfully entitled to in which to submit such representations. The lawful period is given by regulation 3(2)(b) and it is given as any time before the NtO is served and as such a PCN must convey this fact to the recipient.

 

The legislation you are quoting says:

 

3.

(2) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information—

(a) that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and

(b) that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—

(i) those representations will be considered;

(ii) but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

 

 

So the legislation proscribes the action the council must take if they receive a representation before the NTO. It does not compel them to write on the PCN that you are entitled to make reps any time before the NTO is issued, which is what you seem to be saying.

 

As regards the 14-day thing, obviously it depends on whether you count the date of the letter as day 1, or whether you start counting from the following day. It's debatable - but in practical terms, I am unsure what difference it makes. You could take this up with the council if you feel that you do want to settle at £25, although you've let it go way past that now, and forfeited your own deadline as well as theirs. You can still speak to them about it, though.

 

G&M's observation is important. Code 30 is for pay & display bays. I think it should be code 82 for a pay & display car park. I am pretty certain that the car park you parked in would not be classed as on-street, so that is a line of appeal which will probably win it for you if you make representations against the Notice to Owner, when it arrives.

[supermonkeys]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]51015[/ATTACH]

Thanks,

 

This is what I noted on my appeal:

it fails to make the recipient aware of the period of time they are lawfully entitled to in which to submit such representations.....

Such failure could prejudice the recipient in that they may only believe they have 28 days to submit an informal representation when the truth is that they have as long as it takes for the authority to serve the NtO. For instance, a person (where the NtO has not yet been served) may only remember about the PCN on the 30th day after service and as the PCN implies you can only challenge within 28 days that person will not appeal. However, that person is lawfully entitled to appeal informally if no NtO has yet been served.

I've tried to do a bit of research into the Code 30 thing & havn't found much. I can't find a list on Milton Keynes Councel website & what I have found on other authorities websites makes no mention of bays/car parks etc. I've found the attached from CEO handbook, it shows a bay on a street, but doesn't specifically state that this can only apply in this situation. Edited May 19, 2014 by supermonkeys

[Jamberson]

I don't think they are obliged to tell you how long you are entitled to make representations. This is what I keep saying - you quoted something which doesn't say that, and the other thing you've copied above is about a different PCN, which says that it's 28 days. That PCN is wrong - but yours doesn't say that, so I don't see it is relevant.

 

Anyhow, the more important thing is the contravention codes. These codes are uniform across the country, so although you may not find it on the MK website, it's easy to look up the codes and see what they are for. Check here for example:

 

http://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/policylobbying/transport/parkinginlondon/contraventioncodelist.htm

 

Code 30, which you were issued with, is in the "On Street" list.

 

The correct contravention would be Code 82, in the "Off Street" section.

 

G&M is bang on. It's the wrong contravention, and so the PCN is invalid. You should win if you appeal on that basis instead of trying to pick apart the small print.

[supermonkeys]

I don't think they are obliged to tell you how long you are entitled to make representations. This is what I keep saying - you quoted something which doesn't say that, and the other thing you've copied above is about a different PCN, which says that it's 28 days. That PCN is wrong - but yours doesn't say that, so I don't see it is relevant.

 

Anyhow, the more important thing is the contravention codes. These codes are uniform across the country, so although you may not find it on the MK website, it's easy to look up the codes and see what they are for. Check here for example:

 

http://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/policylobbying/transport/parkinginlondon/contraventioncodelist.htm

 

Code 30, which you were issued with, is in the "On Street" list.

 

The correct contravention would be Code 82, in the "Off Street" section.

 

G&M is bang on. It's the wrong contravention, and so the PCN is invalid. You should win if you appeal on that basis instead of trying to pick apart the small print.

 

Thanks - is it best to await the NTO and appeal that? They've said they will read, but won't respond any further emails.

[Jamberson]

Thanks - is it best to await the NTO and appeal that? They've said they will read, but won't respond any further emails.

 

Yep. That's what you need to do.

[supermonkeys]

Thanks, the NTO has now arrived.

 

It has two small black & white photos of the car in a space. One is close up showing there is no ticket & the other is supposed to show the coloured line in front of the space, but since it is printed in black & white I can't tell whether this confirms I was parked in a space with a time restriction (I didn't think I was). There doesn't seem to be a way to view these photos online to check.

 

It lists the various "grounds for representations".

 

If the photos had clearly shown the car was parked ok, I'd tick "the alleged contravention did not occur".

 

Does the wrong code being used mean I tick "proceduarl impropriety" or "order which is alleged to have been contravened is invalid"?

 

From earlier messages, I'm assuming it's not worth mentioning the reasons from my original appeal?

[Jamberson]

Tick "the alleged contravention did not occur" and explain why.

[supermonkeys]

Tick "the alleged contravention did not occur" and explain why.

 

Thanks, so basically explain that Code 30 refers to a bay on a street & I was parked in a car park (obviously will re-word & add waffle as required)

[Jamberson]

Yes. Keep any waffle down to a minimum of course, and stick to the point - I think you are onto a winner.

[supermonkeys]

Thanks... I hope so!

 

Is it normal that there's no way to submit representations online? I'll have to get the wife to write as she has better handwriting!

 

How does this sound?

 

I am writing to appeal this PCN on the grounds that:

 

1. The alleged contravention did not occur as contravention code 30 relates to pay & display on street bays where as the vehicle was parked in a car park. (If the CEO felt that a contravention had occurred because of overstaying in the car park, they would have used code 82).

 

Not sure whether to use the bit in brackets...

[Jamberson]

It's OK, but not too robust. How about:

 

I contest this PCN on the grounds that the alleged contravention did not occur. The PCN states a contravention code 30, which pertains to parking for longer than permitted in an on-street bay. However I was not parked in an on-street bay and so that contravention could not have occurred. I was parked in an off-street car park, and you will be aware that there are separate regulations governing off-street spaces, and if the CEO judged that my pay & display ticket had expired in a car park, he/she would be required to issue a PCN under contravention code 82. Since this was apparently the alleged contravention, but a code 30 was erroneously issued, I contend that the PCN is invalid.

 

As regards online appeals, I don't think there is any compulsion on the part of the council to accept them that way, although I could be wrong. In any case, email should suffice, making sure you cite the PCN number and vehicle registration. If unsure, you can call them in a couple of days and double check that they received it OK.

[supermonkeys]

thanks - thats much better.

 

I think I'll just post, as I doubt they'll accept an email. They did say in previous letter "you must wait until the Registered Keeper of the vehicle receives a Notice to Owner before writing in to make further representations."

 

I might follow up with an email to confirm, worried I might get a bit grumpy over the phone!

[supermonkeys]

Hi again,

 

I've now had a response, unfortunately a notice of rejection of representations.

 

It states:

 

There is a sign where you parked that explains, although parking is free in that bay, you can only park for a certain length of time. You were given a Penalty Charge Notice for parking for longer than this. This rule applies to all users of the bay.

 

In response to your query regarding the contravention code, contravention code 82 is an off-street contravention code and you were issued a Penalty Charge Notice in an on-street car park. Therefore the code used was correct.

 

I always thought On-Street parking had to be on the road itself as the name suggests?

 

Thanks

[Jamberson]

They are surely wrong about this. On-street means on the highway, and you were clearly off the highway and in a car park.

 

What I think you should do is this: Ask them for a copy of the Traffic Regulation Order for the location where you parked. This is the legal framework which entitles them to issue PCNs there and you can see it free of charge.

 

This should tell you once and for all whether that location is classed as on-street or off-street. On the assumption that it is not on-street, you'll need to follow the usual appeals process but should win in the end.

[supermonkeys]

Thanks, I will do this.

 

However, on the central milton keynes parking map, they show a car parking which is specifically labelled as "off-street", which makes me thing the others are all considered "on-street"

 

https://www.milton-keynes.gov.uk/assets/attach/16110/CMK%20PARKING%20MAP%20(November%202013).pdf

[Jamberson]

That is curious. Surely they don't classify all the parking around the shopping centre as on-street? You have to turn off the road to get into the parking area - it's an obvious car park in my view. See what the Traffic Order says though.

[supermonkeys]

Thanks.

 

I've requested the TRO, but am not hopeful.

 

I now have contact info for the person responsible for councils car parks in MK and have been discussing by email with her. It is a more pleasant experience trying to reason with an actual person, but still unsuccessful.

 

It's a shame I'm so stubborn as I seem to have no chance but just don't want to stop now.

[supermonkeys]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]51968[/ATTACH]I've now received the TRO, I think it does show the parking as on street, but would be grateful of confirmation!

 

Thanks again

[Jamberson]

I'm amazed. I think it does show that location as on-street. It seems to be to be a perversion of the term - but there it is. I was certain it would be classed as off-street.

 

If you are in touch with someone over this, you could ask if they would be kind and reinstate the discount, now you have seen the TRO. If not, you've nothing to lose by taking it to adjudication, but I now think the odds are against you.

[supermonkeys]

many thanks for your suggestion, they accepted that & I have now paid the reduced fine.

 

I also contacted the leisure company we had visited when the PCN was issued to advise them what had happened so they can take steps to avoid similar happening to other customers. They have generously offered some free tickers/vouchers.