The Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013. A general discussion thread.......

[brassnecked]

It is my understanding that the Government will be waiting a while to see how the new Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013 works in practice and there will then be a review of the new National Standards that will very likely lead to more changes but the most important new development with the Standards in that in the months ahead MoJ will be seeking to have the Standards endorsed by all Stakeholders (and appropriate creditors). This should add a lot more weight to the Standards.

 

That would be good as the Standards are quite reasonable and balanced. Maybe a little more detail and guidance on vulnerability and a list of conditions that would mean automatic vulnerability, around mental health.

[tomtubby]

Hopefully today I will be a chance to read the new Standards.....a very busy weekend.

[mikeymack2002]

Having viewed this new document I have downloaded it and made some notes in the right hand column rather than re-write it all again just some questions and thoughts please view the attached edited PDF please then click the relevant highlighted section for the question to pop up

 

 

Thx MM

[mikeymack2002]

It would be good to know. I think there are issues over re-entry, and from my understanding, they can no longer climb through an open window, but I may well be wrong?

 

point 59.

see here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?421480-The-Taking-Control-of-Goods-Regulations-2013.-A-general-discussion-thread.......&p=4510901#post4510901

[avfc1]

You really need to have a read of the previous National Standards

 

 

Unfortunately, due to my post count, I can't post a link so Google National Standards for Enforcement Agents

[brassnecked]

The standards are an improvement no doubt with a creditor and EA reminded to consider vulnerability and if there is a vulnerable debtor, and it is known to the creditor that they are, they should let the EA know before the EA stems in regardless.

Edited April 7, 2014 by brassnecked
eradicate typos

[mikeymack2002]

That link does not work for me.

 

 

Go to the bottom of the page the PDF is there

 

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/enforcement-officers

 

 

MM

[tomtubby]

It is well known that enforcement agents (possibly for financial reasons) will attempt to misinterpret the regulations in such as way a way to suit them. It would seem that there are a number of websites that do the same (in this I refer to section 31 of the National Standards which states as follows:

 

Enforcement agents must not seek to enforce the recovery of fees where an enforcement power has ceased to be exercisable.

 

As many will know, the regulations that came into effect yesterday are contained in MANY different statutory instruments (some of which are very surprising and these details clearly the position of fees (which is effect is almost the same as the previous regs regarding council tax) the difference being that the enforcement company ANY the creditor receive a pro rata distribution.

 

With regards to section 31 what this means is that if a local authority or Magistrate Court RECALL the warrant or Liability Order (because of a Statutory Declaration or because the LA may have obtained employment details etc for an Attachment of Earnings) then the EA CANNOT enforce against the debtor for an fees that they may have incurred.

 

PS: Section 31 does NOT mean that paying the court or local authority direct will stop the enforcement agent from pursuing the fee.

[brassnecked]

So for clarity and definitive advice under S31 the fees remain payable UNLESS the creditor recalls the debt from the EA?

[outlawla]

....With regards to section 31 what this means is that if a local authority or Magistrate Court RECALL the warrant or Liability Order (because of a Statutory Declaration or because the LA may have obtained employment details etc for an Attachment of Earnings) then the EA CANNOT enforce against the debtor for an fees that they may have incurred.

 

PS: Section 31 does NOT mean that paying the court or local authority direct will stop the enforcement agent from pursuing the fee.

 

I wondered whether this local rag knew what it was talking about or was just guessing as they normally do....

 

Buckingham today – bailiffs rule change....

 

"

When an EA receives an instruction from South Northants Council (SNC) to collect unpaid council tax or business rates there will be an immediate compliance fee of £75 payable by the account holder.

 

Any payments made after the instruction has been issued will automatically go towards paying these fees...

[tomtubby]

The important thing that needs to be done is to provide ACCURATE information (wherever possible) to debtors. It is sadly a know fact that there are some internet sites that had an astonishing level of misunderstanding of the regulations in the past and 2 sites in particular only confirmed on April Fools Day that the new regulations do also apply to council tax, non domestic rates and unpaid parking charge notices (this was despite the entire 'advice' industry knowing different at least 2 years ago!!!!

 

Sadly, even today those same internet sites CLAIM that Magistrate Court fines are 'apparently' not included in the new regulations. This is very sloppy of the sites in question and inability to read and properly UNDERSTAND the new regulations. Instead, the sites in question are now referring all visitors to the new National Standards (which are merely a good practice Guidance tool).

 

For the avoidance of doubt....Magistrate Court FINES are now CLEARLY embodied in the new Statutory Regulations and the new fees scale applies to them also.

[Coughdrop]

This is astonishing. I hope these supposed 'advice' sites are just that, advice and are not offering any other services. It could be potentially very costly for any debtor reading such a site to think they maintained certain rights they no longer have.

[mikeymack2002]

This is astonishing. I hope these supposed 'advice' sites are just that, advice and are not offering any other services. It could be potentially very costly for any debtor reading such a site to think they maintained certain rights they no longer have.

 

 

It already has on numerous times

[wonkeydonkey]

The important thing that needs to be done is to provide ACCURATE information (wherever possible) to debtors. It is sadly a know fact that there are some internet sites that had an astonishing level of misunderstanding of the regulations in the past and 2 sites in particular only confirmed on April Fools Day that the new regulations do also apply to council tax, non domestic rates and unpaid parking charge notices (this was despite the entire 'advice' industry knowing different at least 2 years ago!!!!

 

Sadly, even today those same internet sites CLAIM that Magistrate Court fines are 'apparently' not included in the new regulations. This is very sloppy of the sites in question and inability to read and properly UNDERSTAND the new regulations. Instead, the sites in question are now referring all visitors to the new National Standards (which are merely a good practice Guidance tool).

 

For the avoidance of doubt....Magistrate Court FINES are now CLEARLY embodied in the new Statutory Regulations and the new fees scale applies to them also.

 

It is becoming increasingly obvious with the two sites in question that they are floundering to getting the correct information out there to the public, I suspect this is due to the fact your good self, has produced guidance in a very understandable format ie without the need to confuse people with reference to all the 'legislation' which of course means they will have to research for themselves instead of following their usual practice of simply copying your posts and posting on their own sites and it could be they just do not know where to start looking?

[brassnecked]

It is becoming increasingly obvious with the two sites in question that they are floundering to getting the correct information out there to the public, I suspect this is due to the fact your good self, has produced guidance in a very understandable format ie without the need to confuse people with reference to all the 'legislation' which of course means they will have to research for themselves instead of following their usual practice of simply copying your posts and posting on their own sites and it could be they just do not know where to start looking?

They should cease and desist from peddling their snake oil then.

[mikeymack2002]

Just a random question I may have asked before but have forgotten.

 

 

What if the debtor Pays and reclaims from now on?

 

 

If the debtor makes the mistake of following other sites advice does anyone know yet what the rules will be in the coming months for them?

 

 

MM

[tomtubby]

Just a random question I may have asked before but have forgotten.

 

What if the debtor Pays and reclaims from now on?

 

If the debtor makes the mistake of following other sites advice does anyone know yet what the rules will be in the coming months for them?

 

MM

 

Any website that advises a debtor to 'pay and reclaim' is not helping a debtor at all and in fact, is merely trying to direct a debtor towards a 'Gotcha Clause' to get the debtor out of paying.

 

In the main, such sites are almost always associated with the Freeman on the Land movement (although this may not be apparent to visitors) and they will be attempting debtors towards thinking that council tax, parking tickets and in particualr...court fines are not legal debts.

 

Under the new regulations (and also the old ones) the position is this:

 

Imagine if a debtor paid a Liability Order by cheque. The account would be marked as PAID. If the cheque bounced 10 days or 2 weeks later the account (previously marked as paid) would be re-opened and the account referred to an enforcement agents to recommence enforcement proceedings.

 

Exactly the same position arises in cases of 'Pay and Reclaim' and the only difference being that instead of the enforcement company being made aware of the reversed payment by cheque of approx 10 days - 2 weeks, the credit card/debit card's reversal would take a few weeks longer.

[Coughdrop]

Can I just ask for clarification... I understand that the processes have changed and that the fees have been substantially increased. What are the variations to our own rights.... for example: A bailiff never used to have right of access to your home... being permitted access through open doors and windows only... is this still the case? Is a person still free to leave the door shut in the knowledge that if the force entry they will be committing an offence or have the new rules also provided the "Enforcement Officer" new powers?

 

Please have a read of the following link which was published on here yesterday and has been consulted widely by many councils. It sets out things from a consumers point of view factually using some of the material from this site. It will answer all your questions above and more:

 

http://simply-wrong.com/new-bailiff-regulations-april-6th-2014/

[mikeymack2002]

Thx TT so for clarification would the EA be entitled to add further fees for this situation if so do you know what they could be?

 

 

Example debt including EA fees is £500-00 the debtors pays and reclaims, when the refund shows up on the EA's books they return to collect again on the original debt how much can they add in further fees please?

 

 

In plain English this would be a failed payment therefore a chargeable fee on top to the original debt, is this correct

 

 

Thx MM

[SWLABR9]

"Tools used in the course of your work may be removed by the Enforcement Agent if they have a value of more than £1,350.00." Individually or collectively? It doesn't appear to say.

[SWLABR9]

Then there's this; "What is vulnerable?

This is now determined entirely by the EA. There is nothing in writing yet which determines this category of debtor. We have been promised new National Standards for Enforcement Agents, and as mentioned above, these are to be totally rewritten. They are not there (even in a draft form) yet. We must assume the EA’s will apply the criteria for vulnerability as currently exists."

Well actually, we mustn't. What we must assume is until there's law made about it there's now no such thing as vulnerable.

[SWLABR9]

And there's "22(1) The court may not issue a warrant under paragraph 20 or include provision under paragraph 21 unless it is satisfied that prescribed conditions are met.

(2) A warrant under paragraph 20 or provision included under paragraph 21 may require any constable to assist the enforcement agent to execute the warrant. (A clear, and very significant change from the police attending only in order to prevent a breach of the peace)."

One wonders where all these spare policemen are going to be coming from - are normal duties to be abandoned in order to assist EAs?

[chrisphilip]

I have a question when the debt gets passed to them do they have to accept a payment plan from yourself or can they reject this?

[Highland mav]

Hi,

 

I think you will also find that a bailiff or Enforcement Officer can only enter your property peaceably, by way of, open window or open door. That has never changed, nor will it ever. If it is a High Court Bailiff, ie; Mortgage Arrears and such, then and only then, are they legally allowed to have a Locksmith attend to force entry. Anything else is illegall.

 

For any bailiff to take 'Levy' on your goods he has to have been invited in and not looking through a window

 

Also, Lord Denning said in one of his courts, ' If a bailiff enters without the express permission of the householder, you have the right to hit him over the back of the head with a milk bottle' and treat him/her as tresspassing. ( sorry can't remember the case or number now, look it up, you will find it true)

 

So whether you have CCJ's or not, the bailliff or sheriff cannot force entry just because he comes along with the old bill and a locksmith, you still have your rights,

 

ie; refuse entry even if old bill is there, old bill is just to make sure no breach of the peace.

 

So stand your ground. IF, it's a High Court Bailiff then you have no option, they can and will force entry.

 

Hope this clears a lot of the crap up.

 

Most of what you are reading has been put in such a way to scare the hell out of people.

 

I was in the business for over 25yrs. I know what they can and can't do, regardless of this new crap they are sending out.

 

I hope this info stays up, as another thread I did with info on was taken down. It seems like some people don't want you to know the REAL truth.

 

all the best

[tomtubby]

Coughdrop....it is a shame that you have posted the link on this page as once again this thread is fast going 'off topic".

 

All of the above posts on this page should be on the right thread which is the DISCUSSION thread regarding the new regulations.