Off topic posts from "Getting them to Reveal their Vitals"

[alisono]

Hi, I'm reading the thread with interest perhaps someone can help me out, I have recieved the same from Link Financial, they have sent me a copy of MBNA terms and conditions on them and my name and address, no signature, in fact I cant even remember getting a letter before from Link regarding this debt, they are stating that they going to try and take me to court and either make me bankrupt or a charging order on my house, they stated they sent me the copy of the CCJ request last year when I originally requested this but they certainly did not. What do you suggest?

 

I also have another debt with a company called Lowells, this is very strange, I CCJ Lowells anad they duly sent me back a copy of a reply card dated 5/12/99 this is for a credit card i applied for to Providian Bank, the terms and conditions are for a Monument Credit card no signature on that, then they are saying they bought this debt from a company called Compucredit. Lowells have sent me a default notice and a statement of account in the name of Lowell Portfolio. How do I start to contest this?

Credit crad reply form that has Credit Card Regulated by Consumer Act 1974 applying for a Providian Credit Card and Pin, my old address of 8 years ago, Terms and conditions in the name of Monument with my new address on agreement between R.Raphel & Sons PLC t/as Monument.

[alisono]

Thanks for the advice, I have cut and pasted your letter and will send this off to them. The credit card was taken out in 1999 and the last time I acknowledged the debt was 2007. The Link MBNA terms and conditions with my name on actually has the wrong address on it, really funny thing is that the address is a large house behind where I live.

 

I'm going to post the Lowells thing separately.

[r&b]

Thanks for the advice, I have cut and pasted your letter and will send this off to them. The credit card was taken out in 1999 and the last time I acknowledged the debt was 2007. The Link MBNA terms and conditions with my name on actually has the wrong address on it, really funny thing is that the address is a large house behind where I live.

 

I'm going to post the Lowells thing separately.

 

hi alisono,

i would think carefully about sending any letters that can be construed as admitting to the debt. as DD says above, if what u say is correct, this is Statute Barred under the Limitations Act 1980, and therefore they have no further right to repayment, unless you say so, verbally or otherwise!!!!

 

Debt Factsheets - Liability for Debts and the Limitation Act

[diddydicky]

Thanks for the advice, I have cut and pasted your letter and will send this off to them. The credit card was taken out in 1999 and the last time I acknowledged the debt was 2007. The Link MBNA terms and conditions with my name on actually has the wrong address on it, really funny thing is that the address is a large house behind where I live.

 

I'm going to post the Lowells thing separately.

 

in what way/context did you acknowledge the debt in 2007?

 

did you admit it?

[InformedSearcher]

hi alisono,

i would think carefully about sending any letters that can be construed as admitting to the debt. as DD says above, if what u say is correct, this is Statute Barred under the Limitations Act 1980, and therefore they have no further right to repayment, unless you say so, verbally or otherwise!!!!

 

Debt Factsheets - Liability for Debts and the Limitation Act

 

 

Ahhh BUT acknowledging the debt in 1997 like starts the 6 year thing off again. Statute barred tends to be 'no communication' for 6 years. If you 'acknowledge' the debt 2 years ago I doubt you'd be able to claim SB (sadly).

...but I might be wrong!

 

Michael

[diddydicky]

talking about or discussing the creditors claim does not mean it is being admitted which is why i asked him what exactly was said/written

 

I am pretty sure that writing to a creditor in response to a demand for a debt and responding that you do not admit any debt to them does not stop the clock

[cymruambyth]

Hi changing direction from this, and sorry if this has been answered earlier, when you complete an AQ do you send copies of the CPR 31.14 or CPR 31.16

[foolishgirl]

Hi changing direction from this, and sorry if this has been answered earlier, when you complete an AQ do you send copies of the CPR 31.14 or CPR 31.16

 

CPR 31.14 as legal action has commenced. However make sure you send it out before you get notification of track allocation as you cannot use CPR31 on small claims, however you can use if you don't know the track.

[cymruambyth]

Hi FG, thanks for reply,both 31.16 and 31.14 sent out at the correct time; do I need to send copies to the court with completed N150?

[foolishgirl]

No, but if you are compiling draft directions to go into the AQ, the fact that you have sent the CPR & not received a response should go into it.

 

Have you got a thread & have you posted what you intend to put on the AQ?

[dp77]

I have a question regarding CPR 31.14, which I hope someone will be able to help with.

 

I am defending a claim issued in the County Court by Amex, I acknowledged service and have until October 19th to file my defence. As soon as I received the claim I fired off a CPR 31.14 to Amex's solicitors, asking to see a copy of the agreement they cited in the Particulars of Claim.

 

I got a letter back, within the 7 day time frame, saying they needed more time to 'verify the document' and that they would grant me a further '14 days from the date the document is provided' to file my defence. All of which conforms to CPR 31.14

 

With the deadline for submitting my defence coming up, my concern is this; how does the Court know the claimant has agreed to extend this deadline? Do I need to notify the Court, if so how? Or is the Claimant obliged to do that? What I don't want to happen is that I don't submit my defence on time, because I am waiting for this document & the extra 14 days, and then judgement is entered against me by default. I know that sounds a little paranoid but I do not trust Amex's solicitors at all, with good reason.

 

Thanks in advance for any help

[diddydicky]

im no expert, but to be on the safe side i would write to the court confirming the arrangement and enclosing a copy of their letter

 

just in case the sneaky bar stewards try to slip in a SJ

[lexis200]

ditto - don't trust them!

[foolishgirl]

ditto - don't trust them!

 

Without doubt - this is an old Amex trick.

 

Don't rely on the court recording it either!

 

Submit a holding defence if necessary with the caveat that you be permitted to submit a full defence when Amex have provided the docs.

[the_shadow]

im no expert, but to be on the safe side i would write to the court confirming the arrangement and enclosing a copy of their letter

 

just in case the sneaky bar stewards try to slip in a SJ

 

The same as per the expert bit ;-)

 

As far as I'm aware the claim process doesnt have an automatic clock set until after a judge has looked at the case and started to issue directions, therefore a claim is entered and sent to the respondent, if the respondent doesnt reply or defend the claimant has to request judgment, its not automatic. I believe MCOL's jugdment button only becomes avail when either an admission is filed with the court or the 14 days are over or 14+14 which ever is the case. Perhaps someone could confirm?

 

Therefore their agreement should mean they wont request the judgment until the criteria in their letter is met.

 

I agree with DD tho and would send a copy to the court copying in the opposing solicitors asking that the copy be placed on the court file, just in case someone over zealous was to hit the judgment button in MCOL.

 

Just my opinions tho...

 

S.

Edited October 8, 2009 by the_shadow
Too many the's :-)

[dp77]

Without doubt - this is an old Amex trick.

 

Don't rely on the court recording it either!

 

Submit a holding defence if necessary with the caveat that you be permitted to submit a full defence when Amex have provided the docs.

 

How does one submit a holding defence? Would that simply be a standard defence form, with the caveat added?

 

My understanding is that simply sending a letter to the Court will do no good, as they only respond to and record official forms, not letters.

 

I am tempted to file my intended embarrassed defence, on time, and add that the claimant has responded to a CPR 31.14 request by saying they will provide the document and more time (although they have given no specific date for providing the document), and I will be adding to my defence when and if they do supply the document.

[dp77]

Therefore their agreement should mean they wont request the judgment until the criteria in their letter is met.

 

I agree with DD tho and would send a copy to the court copying in the opposing solicitors asking that the copy be placed on the court file, just in case someone over zealous was to hit the judgment button in MCOL.

S.

 

I think that is correct, the claimant has to request judgment, it is not automatic - although I am certainly no expert either!

 

Plain and simple, I just don't trust them, I do not want to be in a position where I am relying on them to do the right thing. I suppose I just wondered if there was a form, or a set procedure, for notifying the Court that the claimant has agreed to extend my deadline for submitting a defence. If it was any other court than Northampton I could call and ask, but not them.

 

A steep learning curve but all valuable experience, which I hope to be able to help someone else with one day!

[Gazza112]

DP77

 

Listen to diddydicky and lexis, i never received any paperwork for my Court case. I started a paper trail to the Courts which i found was of help when my case was heard by the Judge.

 

Gaz

[dp77]

Okay, so the consensus is that I should write to the Court, enclosing a copy of the letter I received from Amex's solicitors, and asking that it be attached to the court papers relating to this case, as I will be delaying submitting my defence until the claimant has provided this document?

[foolishgirl]

How does one submit a holding defence? ...

 

I am tempted to file my intended embarrassed defence, on time, and add that the claimant has responded to a CPR 31.14 request by saying they will provide the document and more time (although they have given no specific date for providing the document), and I will be adding to my defence when and if they do supply the document.

 

Holding/embarrassed - same thing.

 

Yes, put a clause in to the effect that you wish to submit a more detailed defence within 14 days of Amex supplying the paperwork. Attach a copy of Amex's letter.

 

If they haven't supplied docs by the time you get to AQ stage, you can then ask for draft directions with a strike out if they don't comply within a set period.

 

In any case if they haven't supplied within 14 days from today I would send them a reminder under CPR31.14 giving them a specific date by which they must comply eg. 10 further days. Then if/when you come to court you have bigger bullets to fire.

[dp77]

Thank you foolishgirl, that appears to be sound advice.

 

Right now my thinking is to submit an embarrassed defence, adding that I have received a letter from the claimant (a copy will be attached) but that as it gives no date for complying with my formal request to see the document I thought it best to file now. I would request the right, granted in the claimant's letter, to submit a more detailed defence within 14 days of the claimant providing the document, if they provide it at all.

 

That seems to cover the bases; it submits a defence on time, it gets the letter put on the court record for the claim and it shows I am doing my best to adhere to the Court's required timetable.

 

I suppose the potential spanner in the works is that I receive the document before my embarrasssed defence is submitted

[the_shadow]

I receive the document before my embarrasssed defence is submitted

 

Unlikely

 

S.

[Meldrew]

Originally Posted by Alison82

^^ What if I haven't even started a claim yet? I am trying to get as much information that they hold on me before I start anything.

 

Thanks

You cant use CPR 31.14 without a claim being in process...

 

CPR 31.16 is the one you want for pre-disclosure documents.. see this thread..

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html

 

But read the first 8-10 posts of the thread carefully before instigating anything

 

S.

Dunno how far you've got with this Ali, but if you're still at the pre-claim stage you could use Annex A para.4.2(7) of CPR Pre-Action Conduct protocol [here] to ask for (free) copies of documents mentioned by a potential claimant.

 

CPR 31.2 defines disclosure: "A party discloses a document by stating that the document exists or has existed", and 31.3(1) allows inspection: "A party to whom a document has been disclosed has a right to inspect that document ...". So both CPR 31.16 (via 31.3(1)) and 31.14 will only let you inspect a document; they won't get you a copy. You have to ask for it under 31.15© and offer to pay "reasonable copying costs" - say, 10p/sheet, or whatever you'd pay at your local convenience store.

 

As shadow says, CPR 31.16 applies where a claim has not yet been issued (but seems likely). CPR 31.14 applies if a claim has been issued but either not yet allocated to a track or allocated to the Fast Track. For claims allocated to the Small Claims track you must use CPR 27.4(3)(a)(i) [here], where at a Preliminary hearing you can ask the judge to order "standard directions" for the claimant to give you a copy of all documents he'll rely on.

 

So in a nutshell, to get a copy of document:

 

• Claim threatened but not yet issued:
  
  • CPR 31.16 & 31.15©, or
    
  • Pre-Action Conduct protocol Annex A para.4.2(7)
    

   

  [*] Claim issued but not yet allocated: CPR 31.14 & 31.15©

  [*] Claim issued and allocated to the Small Claims Track: CPR 27.4(3)(a)(i)

  [*] Claim issued and allocated to the Fast Track: CPR 31.14 & 31.15©.

Using the appropriate route should produce an actual (not "true") copy of the agreement and any other documents vital to the claimant's case. If they don't appear, then most likely the claimant hasn't got them, in which case one hopes he will see his claim is groundless and futile, and withdraw it.

 

Here's a template letter for the first case above (cobbled from another of X20's master works - deep, deep homage!). You'll need to adapt it to your own circumstances:

RECORDED DELIVERY

Request for copies of documents

(Civil Procedure Rules 1998: Pre-Action Protocols)

 

Dear Sirs

Account/Reference [1234 5678 8765 4321] (IN DISPUTE)

 

Your letter dated **DATE** (received **DATE**) says your client has instructed you to commence court proceedings against me without delay, and that papers are being prepared for action at my local court to seek a judgement against me.

 

As you know, I have long since requested from your client, under both the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (“CCA 74”) and the Data Protection Act 1998, evidence of the agreement to which both you and your client allege I am a party. To date your client has failed to supply any such evidence, but instead tried to persuade me that providing a copy of an application form discharges your client from further obligations under section 78 of CCA 74. Conversely, I have explained that a copy of a mere application form is not a lawful substitute for a true copy of the executed agreement as required by CCA 74 s.78 and prescribed by Regulation 3 of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (“CNCD 83”).

 

I remind you that CCA 74 s.78(6) provides that whilst a creditor is in default of a request made under sub-section (1) it may not enforce the alleged agreement.

 

Notwithstanding the above and your client's persistent, unexplained and wilful refusal to supply a copy of an executed agreement in accordance with its obligations (the permitted omissions under CNCD 83 Reg.3(2) excepted), you have made plain your client’s intention to begin legal proceedings against me. Consequently this matter is now subject to the Civil Procedure Rules and your letter appears to be intended as a “letter before claim”, despite not complying with the Pre-Action Conduct protocol.

 

Therefore take notice that, I request you supply to me within 14 days true copies of the following documents:

1) the executed credit agreement incorporating prescribed notices, terms and conditions applicable at the time the agreement was executed, and

2) any further or subsequent notices, terms and conditions relied on.

 

If you are unable to supply these documents please confirm discontinuance of your client’s claim.

 

Take note that this request is not made under either CCA 74 or DPA 98. It is under Annex A paragraph 4.2(7) of the CPR Pre-Action Conduct protocol, for a copy of alleged documents which I believe are relevant but do not have.

 

Should you ignore this request, I shall in due course make another under CPR 27 or 31.15, as appropriate. If you fail to comply with that request, I will ask the court to strike out your client's claim as an abuse of process due to lack of reasonable grounds, or at least order proceedings be stayed pending provision of the requisite documents. The application will refer to this and previous document requests, and apply for costs.

 

FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBT, THE ABOVE SHALL NOT BE CONSTRUED AS ADMITTING THE EXISTENCE OR VALIDITY OF AN AGREEMENT WITH OR DEBT TO YOU OR ANYONE YOU CLAIM TO REPRESENT.

Yours faithfully

 

PRINT NAME, DON'T SIGN

I'm sure X20 or other experts here will point out any flaws in this!

[B3rty]

Its good...thanks for the info...

[Fullyskinted]

Im liking that there ^^^^ Meldrew! Might use that myself! You had any comebacks? I gotta put a defence in tomorrow with the court!