Will I have to give it back?

[Guest bong]

I currently have a claim ongoing - on my particulars of claim I gave the judge 3 options

- Compounded contractual interest at the banks unauthorised rate of 24.9%

- Compounded contractual interest at the banks authorised rate of 7.75%

- Simple 8% (s.69)

The bank in question have chosen to give me back 8% compounded as they say I'm not 'entitled' to any more.

My argument is that it is not up to them to decide how much I'm 'entitled' to - it is the judge's decision and I'll see them in court.

My question is - If we go to court and the judge sides with the bank would I have to give back the cash that they have already given me?

I'm determined to get the rest of my cash but obviously don't want to end up out of pocket (again)

Can anyone out there help?

 

redsue I agree with you but having looked again at your first post it seems to me that you are taking quite a gamble because in effect having received 8% compounded, by pursuing this you are saying you will only settle for (a) the unauthorised rate. Because if you got (b) compound 7.75% or © 8% simple, you will end up paying back some of the money you have already received and risk losing your court costs too. You probably know all this but I just wondered how prepared you are in terms of having arguments ready to do battle for the unauthorised rate, assuming that you will be up against armies of legal teams who will be determined not to allow you to set a precedent. Are you perhaps banking on the bank caving before it gets to court?

[redsue]

erm, yes.... ha ha

 

TBH I thought there was more people who had gone down this route at the time of claiming. I fully reseached the concept and spent hours reading the thread that was started by BF - why is no one claiming contractual interest?

 

I'm sorry but I'm certainly not the person who wants to try and set a legal precedent as the money we have been refunded is very important to us and I'm not prepared to risk it - so if there are any multi millionaires out there who fancy taking on the banks??!!

 

Thanks everyone for your comments

[Guest willowb]

Redsue, can you post your figures? what are you claiming in charges? how much have they refunded so far? what does the 8% amount to? how much would your unauthoried o/d interest come to? In the thread I posted a few posts back I read that you shoudn't really be claiming anything more than the overdraft interest rate.

 

Wxx

[redsue]

Hi willow - here is my thread it lists in it detailed particulars of claim and they have chosen option B

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/nationwide/28574-authorised-interest-unauthorised-interest-2.html#post287916

 

thanks - I think I'm more than happy with the £2,857.20 we got back from them - a donation is definately on its way

[Guest bong]

redsue I feel a bit guilty for your decision to give up the fight when I have no legal experience and it may be that you would get more if you held out. After all there are other people who are going for it all. I hope you get a few more opinions before you make your decision to accept, because it may be that you wouldn't get the opposition I've suggested.

[redsue]

No Bong - please please don't feel guilty. The reason I posted such a question was to gauge the general opinion out there. Please, everyone's input is really valued and I don't dismiss any of it purely because I don't agree or have a different opinion.

As I said, I didn't realise that more people where not in the same situation as myself and those that are I don't really know where to find them on the site

[Guest bong]

I didn't realise that more people where not in the same situation as myself and those that are I don't really know where to find them on the site

 

I know it is a shame there is not a way of pooling all the information together in discussion topics without having to trawl through lots of very long threads in different forums and still thinking there might be some you haven't come across because your search missed it. Also some threads change topic and one titled user name v xbank does not reveal much about its contents.

 

I am pleased that you have been able to reach a decision.

[redsue]

Cheers Bong - I've been following your thread (and Angry Cats) for Morgan Stanley as they are next on the list along with MBNA x2 - bring it on

[Glenn UK]

Thanks to everyone for their input - as for us not being 'entitled' to compounded interest I have to disagree but I certainly welcome everyones differing opinions.

 

Seems to me there is still a lot of confusion over what interest is charged on overdrafts or CC accounts.

 

As i understand it they apply interest at a particular rate.

 

The rate expressed has nothing to do with being compound interest.

 

Its the manner in which that rate is applied to the debt that makes it compound interest.

 

The rate coupled with the act of compounding the interest is what you are charged by the banks and CC companies as part of your agreement with them and therefore contractual interest is the rate plus the method of application of that rate to the debt.

 

So using the term 'compound' contractual interest is i believe incorrect.

 

Using the term 'contractual interest' implies you are using the same rate as the bank and applying that rate to the debt in the same way they did.

 

Having spent a lot of time reading and thinking about this, it still seems to me that from a lay view that excess o/d or cash advance is the only logical choice.

 

HOWEVER, ZOOT HAS KINDLY POINTED OUT SOME OF THE FLAWS IN THIS THOUGHT PROCESS, BECAUSE WE ARE DEALING WITH THE LAW AND IT DOESN'T ALWAYS WORK AS SIMPLY AS WE MAY THINK.

 

Apart from the language we use to talk about interest if you are starting a claim and wish to add contractual interest you should do a lot of research and I would suggest paying particular attention to Zoots comments.

 

 

JMHO

 

Glenn

[Guest willowb]

Contractual interest is compounded.

 

.

 

:p

 

I'm at that point, you know....when you think you know something and then someone asks a question and it shoots out of your head faster than you can say 'dimwitt'!

 

Anyway, I would say this.....the Judge is looking for a claim which is reasonable (on both sides!) if he gets a whiff that you are just trying to squeeze as much out of your claim as you can, he's not gonna like it. I have 2 claims which it's not too late to apply this contractual interest to but I'll stick to an 'authorised' overdraft interest rate and keep it as reasonable as I possibly can.

 

Wxx

[Glenn UK]

Willow

 

I agree entirely about being reasonable and how the courts will view your claims.

 

As an engineer i try to adopt the Keep It Simple, Stupid approach, it works often with the kinds of problems i work on.

 

I reckon someone should introduce the courts to KISS and make all our lives a lot easier, save all this damn case law this that and the other.

 

Glenn

[redsue]

I think I may go for one last email. In a letter they have asked me to send them a schedule of my charges - but I've done this and in my POC I have given a full breakdown and explanation for my reasoning behind the claim. I believe I am giving a FAIR and TRANSPARENT basis for my claim.

When I spoke to them they told me I wasn't 'entitled' to unauthorised - but again I believe it is up to the judge to decide what I am 'entitled' to - does this make me 'unreasonable'

In my LBA I quoted 'the principle of mutuality, or reciprocity, applies to the aforementioned contract'

Any ideas anyone of how I should word my email? I was thinking of using the words - fair, transparent and reasonable amongst others....

[Guest bong]

redsue have they paid you the money before asking for your schedule? Also did you have to sign anything before you received the money?

[redsue]

Hi Bong

I've followed everything to the letter - I sent my shedule of charges to them at prelim and LBA stage as the step by step instructions say (to which incidentally, I heard nothing back from them) - they have also received a very detailed POC as they have a copy of my N1 form.

 

You may find more info on my thread - especially my POC

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/nationwide/28574-authorised-interest-unauthorised-interest-2.html#post287916

 

If the legal team have even bothered to read my POC they will see exactly the reasoning behind the claim.

Below is the letter/email I sent back to them

 

Thank you for your letter dated 12 October 2006, which included a breakdown of the amount you are willing to pay of £2,857.20, I must draw your attention to the outstanding amount for £1605.61.

I respectfully decline your offer of settlement and request, once again, that you return to me all charges imposed on this account, total of £4,462.81

I am happy to accept this initial amount as part payment and look forward to receiving the remainder of the balance of £1605.61 either by cheque made to myself or by credit into my account.

 

I will not be informing the courts that this claim has been settled until the full amount is paid. If I do not receive the funds within the 28 days of service of claim, 8th November 2006, I will have no other course than to file for judgement on the remaining balance.

 

They sent me a letter back which basically says 'we've conducted a thorough investigation, blah, blah, please send us a detailed breakdown of your charges...

but they have all the information they need and I told them so in a phone call.

 

Also - I've signed nowt

[redsue]

any ideas anyone - fon my 2nd email to the bank asking for the rest of my cash at the compounded rate of 24.9%

 

I think I may go for one last email. In a letter they have asked me to send them a schedule of my charges - but I've done this and in my POC I have given a full breakdown and explanation for my reasoning behind the claim. I believe I am giving a FAIR and TRANSPARENT basis for my claim.

When I spoke to them they told me I wasn't 'entitled' to unauthorised - but again I believe it is up to the judge to decide what I am 'entitled' to - does this make me 'unreasonable'

In my LBA I quoted 'the principle of mutuality, or reciprocity, applies to the aforementioned contract'

Any ideas anyone of how I should word my email? I was thinking of using the words - fair, transparent and reasonable amongst others....

 

Sending email tomorrow unfortunately I can't track people who are in a similar situation to myself - thanks to all you lovely people out there

[zootscoot]

If your assuming they will not take this to court that is a big assumption to make. If they are repaying your charges they will not have to prove the charges are unlawful and the only matter to be determined will be interest. You need to be sure of the legal basis of your argument the judge will not be interested in anything else. You have to be absolutely clear in the basis of your claim.

 

See Haydn's experience on a matter of interest in court although not compound interest but Haydn did mention the possibility.

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mercantile-court-cases-stays/36034-case-management-conference-13th.html?highlight=haydn#post299960

[Kidson]

redsue ~ I have noted when claiming for contractual interest you wrote:

 

"d) the Claimants claim contractual interest compounded daily at an annual rate of 24.9% per annum, from the date of each transaction to 9th October 2006, which is £2,151.31, as set out in the attached list of charges. The Claimants further claim interest, on the resulting total of £4,342.81, at the same rate up to the date of judgement or earlier payment, at a daily rate of £0.95 per day"

I understand from vampiress that when you have compound interest you cannot state the rate in pence per day, you need to state that you are claiming at a rate instead. The pence inreases daily as it compounds.

[Guest willowb]

Good point....I'd have thought as well that after a claim is filed that the normal 8% interest would be claimed on the total amount up until judgement. Ooooh I don't know actually, should you claim contractual interest up until moneyclaim stage OR Judgement/pay out stage?

 

Wxx

[Benforlini]

Redsue

Picking up on Kidson's post have you not also made a mistake in the daily rate calculation should it not have been £2.96 per day worked on the basis, as I understand it, of the total x 24.9% divided by 365 and with Vampiress suggestion would be compounding daily.

 

Having reached the N1 stage myself have watched your journey, along with Bill.K and Mindzai, with interest (24.9% of course) but am aware the banks, now we know their snooping, will use any confusion against us so hang in there.

[Guest bong]

Good point....I'd have thought as well that after a claim is filed that the normal 8% interest would be claimed on the total amount up until judgement. Ooooh I don't know actually, should you claim contractual interest up until moneyclaim stage OR Judgement/pay out stage?

 

Wxx

 

morning willow. the 8% doesn't apply at all to claims for contractual unless you've provided for it in the alternative. your claim accrues interest at the contractual rate until it is paid (or 8% if that is what you are awarded).

[Guest willowb]

Morning:)

 

Oh I see, thank you. So, the interest you go for is the one you stick to until the end? Right, I get it.

 

Wxx

[Guest bong]

have you not also made a mistake in the daily rate calculation should it not have been £2.96 per day worked on the basis, as I understand it, of the total x 24.9% divided by 365 and with Vampiress suggestion would be compounding daily.

 

Tell me if I'm wrong but I don't understand how you can get an amount per day - if it is compounding surely the amount increases daily?

[redsue]

Bong - you're right - I've got muddled on my POC - compounded changes on a daily basis - oh bugger....

[Guest willowb]

Hi Sue,

 

It reads to me like you have claimed compounded ineterest up until MCOL and then you have claimed on the total amount 0.92p up until day of Judgement/ settlement (the point I was stuck on). I wonder if this is ok though, at the end of the day you could turn this to your advantage as far as the Judge is concerned?

 

Have I understood this or am I talking crap:confused:

 

Wxx

[Guest bong]

d) the Claimants claim contractual interest compounded daily at an annual rate of 24.9% per annum, from the date of each transaction to 9th October 2006, which is £2,151.31, as set out in the attached list of charges. The Claimants further claim interest, on the resulting total of £4,342.81, at the same rate up to the date of judgement or earlier payment, at a daily rate of £0.95 per day.

 

The account’s Terms and Conditions specify the interest payable on unauthorised drawings from the account. The Claimants hold that this applies to unauthorised drawings by the Defendant as well as to unauthorised drawings by the Claimants. Should the court deem this incorrect, the Claimants claim the rate to be justified under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity, and is based on the Defendant’s unauthorised overdraft interest rate that would be applied under the terms of the above mentioned account.

 

Should the court find that this interest rate is not applicable, then in the alternative the Claimants claim contractual interest compounded daily at an annual rate of 7.75% per annum, from the date of each transaction to 9th October 2006, which is £531.52, as set out in the attached list of charges. The Claimants further claim interest, on the resulting total of £2,723.02, at the same rate up to the date of judgement or earlier payment, at a daily rate of £0.59 per day.

 

The account’s Terms and Conditions specify the interest payable on authorised drawings from the account. The Claimants hold that this applies to authorised drawings by the Defendant as well as to authorised drawings by the Claimants. Should the court deem this incorrect, the Claimants claim the rate to be justified under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity, and is based on the Defendant’s authorised overdraft interest rate that would be applied under the terms of the above mentioned account.

 

Should the court find that this interest rate is not applicable, then in the alternative the Claimants claim interest under Section 69 of the County Court Act 1984 at the rate of 8% per annum calculated from the date of each transaction to 9th October 2006, which is £175.32 and continuing until payment or the date of judgement at a daily rate of £0.52.

 

I could be wrong and I hope someone will correct me if so, but I think that what you could do is call their bluff by writing to them (email or letter) saying you are pursuing contractual interest at 24.9%, give them a correct figure to settle as at the final date they have to settle by (worked out from your spreadsheet), tell them you made an error in the daily rate specified in your POC, but that if they don't agree to settle this by the final date above you will be amending your POC accordingly. If they don't settle (and this is the bit I'm not sure of) could you then just say thank you very much, you've decided to take what they've offered and withdraw your claim. That way you will have taken them to the last hurdle as it were to see if they fold under pressure.