ATOS Different Perspective

[Perseus1]

Just to put things in a different perspective.

 

I could not have any complaints with ATOS. I was at the near recovery point after an injury and they did have the courtesy of having a proper Doctor to examine under the new DWP rules.

 

He did his job in a very courteous manner and I did all the required tests and one extra (blood pressure) which I mentioned on my form.

 

I passed with zero points (as expected). If they did better tests (nerve conduction studies) they could have upped the points total a bit. So I was pronounced fit for work (=JSA) within three months.

 

The tests do not cover head injuries which are one of the hidden injuries, but no matter as this means on the ATOS pass I do not have put Disability on a Job Application form.

 

Then there was the matter of negotiating my reduced capacities with the Job Centre to still qualify for JSA. Doctor would not sign a "Fit for Work" certificate though.

 

It does not mean I do not have empathy with people who think they have had a raw deal. I got all the pertinent information down on the form (I think this is rather important).

 

In practical terms, there is a bit of problem trying to explain away the gap through illness on Application Forms. This requires a bit of creative writing.

 

And in the final guess it is DWP who make the decision from the information they have got, so make sure they have it all written out clearly.

 

I saw it all coming and I am glad I did not make an appeal, so it is not the only route to follow. I feel much better psychologically not putting Disability down on job forms.

 

I won't be working machinery though. My reduced capacities would not allow this. Or humping pallets around.

 

There is a snag with the WP and their mandates though. They are a bit punitive and not helpful.

 

Still get relapses, but it is a hidden injury, so how can anybody tell?

 

So in case somebody is the same position, take one thing at a time. But then I am feeling optimistic.

 

There is a bit of a problem though. I do know not how I would pass a medical if I do get a job. I think the standard tests will show up an anomaly. So I can't really mention it. It has happened before.

[Invalidation]

I can see several problems (for me) with your post.

Firstly, The initial problem isnt ATOS it is the actual ESA50. It works on the basis of everyone being equal. We arent. Some like myself can waltz through it, see the traps and swerve them. Some will be stumped on the first question!.Some people can answer a question with a direct concise answer, some cannot even figure out how to describe their condition. The central fault is, it is designed to only asses the persons fitness for work or work related activity and not the persons actual physical problems.

The ATOS/DWP system is based on Definites, on Positives and many disabilities have no definites, no fixed point of reference. I could go on for pages but I'll move on and hope you see my point.

You were lucky to get a Doctor to assess you. Most get nothing but a basic Nurse with no detailed experience, knowledge or training in all of the many many problems people have, or of how those problems affect them. As I have put down on my Appeal, would you go to a Dentist to assess someone with Bowel Cancer?. Would you take Lamborghini Aventador to a small local Garage to diagnose and fix a problem?.

The ATOS/DWP system is designed to process the maximum amount of claimants at the minimum possible price and by using cheap labour i.e Nurses, rather than fully qualified MD's, or specialists they also get a biased report in their favour.

I also take issue with you statement that. "And in the final guess it is DWP who make the decision from the information they have got,."

2 problems (From my perspective) here. Firstly the DWP dont make the final decision, OK I suppose legally they do, but it is based entirely on the HCP report which in my case suggested I go onto the WRAG. Secondly (and again in my case, but I suspect many others). They dont make decisions from the "information they have got" because in my case and others, the DWP and ATOS actually had no information to base their decision on, no ESA50 or medical documentation as they lost it! and no face to face assessment. Yet the DWP and ATOS felt sufficiently informed to make a decision to put me into the WRAG, without referring it back and demanding more information. (Which is actually illegal, as they will be finding out).

The System is an 'on the cheap' process deliberately designed to shift the maximum amount of people off of disability benefits, as quickly as possible. And you can bet, when the main group of long term DLA claimants come up for renewal after 2015, they will use those results to send them back to the DWP for re-assessment of their ESA claims. Watch this space.

Check the Disability Forums around the web, SEE and READ the reports of biased and bigotted decisions made by ATOS and the DWP that have actually caused people to kill themselves. The DWP and ATOS know this yet they continue. They simply dont care.

Yes there probably are reasonable people working for ATOS but they are few and far between.

However as always, you are entitled to your opinion, which I respect.

[Perseus1]

It is the politicians that make the major decisions.

 

DWP are just servants and should be civil.

 

ATOS are sub-contract and they ought to be a little bit civil.

 

I don't really expect my GP to care too much (I wonder who he is?). I that this was the job of the nurse maid?

 

First trip to the GP and he makes a preliminary judgement according to his experience (heuristics). Sometimes, more tests are needed from specialists. I think some clients have more than one meeting with ATOS medical staff.

 

If the Doctors do find something wrong they are obliged to inform the NHS for investigation into treatment (it happened to me).

 

I think musculoskeletal disorders can be referred to other medical experts (this happened to me through the NHS) for nerve conduction studies for proof etc. There are not enough people to do this as it is.

 

It does seem that ATOS may assume too much from the initial medical diagnosis and their report to DWP may be deficient or plainly wrong if they mistakes (they are only human) or negligent.

 

What I do not know if the DWP contact your local GP for information?

 

Then there are hidden injuries like head injuries, trauma, epilepsy etc. where an ATOS Doctor needs a symptom report and NHS diagnosis as well. This will, presumably, be all in one folder in front of the DWP.

 

Political analysis: in short term the disability charities and consumer action groups can make representations from accurate information to the collaborators (Liberal Democrats). I think if the Liberals Democrats want my vote they would have to withdraw to a Compromise position over important issues.

 

It is not ATOS but the ruling Government.

 

The only person who has actually mentioned that it is his task to get people off benefits is my WP advisor. I ignored him as I did not think it was in his remit.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Perseus1

[Nystagmite]

What I do not know if the DWP contact your local GP for information?

 

Mine was contacted.

 

The tests do cover head injuries. I have one and there are several criteria in the mental health descriptors which cover this. The tests don't cover things like hypersensitivity. They cover loss of senses; but hypersensitivity is just as disabling.

[Perseus1]

Mine was contacted.

 

The tests do cover head injuries. I have one and there are several criteria in the mental health descriptors which cover this. The tests don't cover things like hypersensitivity. They cover loss of senses; but hypersensitivity is just as disabling.

 

All is becoming clearer.

 

ATOS tests are inadequate to diagnose incapacity in all cases, but so is the first visit to a GP.

 

Hypersensitivity in the form of arthritis will eventually disable me, but I should make it to pension age. I am on JSA but I specify no working with machinery, working on fishing boats and lifting pallets etc. and I got my travel to work down to 60 minutes each way. I can do this, or otherwise I make a claim for ESA.

 

Perhaps, I should have said if the incapacities cannot be measured by tests. But ATOS do not do all the tests so I suppose they will have to contact the NHS (via GP).

 

I don't think I have been hard done by the DWP. WP Advisor is a complete pain though. And I am sure I have been turned down at least two jobs on "poor" health prognosis.

[Nystagmite]

ATOS isn't interested in diagnosing people. All they care about is whether you're fit for work. The link you posted about hypersensitivity isn't the type I have. In my case, it's to do with being too sensitive to noise, light, touch, etc.

[Perseus1]

There was a brief bit on Radio Five this morning.

 

Reading between the lines, the idea is to get all the information to the DWP to support the claim before the decision is made.

 

At least some of the problems are caused by the claimant being too ill to do it themselves and their social workers (or agents) do not actually do this. ATOS do send a form first of all. So if someone has had a Heart Attack or Liver Transplant it should be on there.

 

Otherwise, all the DWP will have will be the sickness certificates ???

[Invalidation]

I give up !

[dpick]

What about the HCP persons that deliberately leave out information from the report on the assessment that would have the DWP make a totally different decision. Then due to the assessment being recorded DWP just change the decision without going to appeal. I have had this happen with two persons where I have attended the assessments.

 

dpick

[Perseus1]

What about the HCP persons that deliberately leave out information from the report on the assessment that would have the DWP make a totally different decision. Then due to the assessment being recorded DWP just change the decision without going to appeal. I have had this happen with two persons where I have attended the assessments.

 

dpick

 

The workers that do the assessments have not got the skills to do the job properly. Plenty of evidence to indicate this.

[sillygirl1]

Guess who has one of those 'You have to see a work adviser' letters after being on ESA - trouble is I DO have a very good temp job until January, and then I will be on SMP for a couple of weeks as I have to have a CT guided Root nerve injection into my neck.

 

I really think they should have concentrated on the people who have been on sickness for years for minor things rather than tarring everybody with the same brush - would have produced far more impressive results.

[Nystagmite]

But how do you define "minor"? I also find it hard to believe that people would be on the sick for years with supposedly minor things.

[Perseus1]

But how do you define "minor"? I also find it hard to believe that people would be on the sick for years with supposedly minor things.

 

Lots of comments on here which may represent the public views?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13217824

 

My view corresponds with this one:

 

Caledonia67

28TH APRIL 2011 - 12:20

To those accusing people of fraudulently claiming benefits for false medical conditions, are you honestly saying that GP's hand out sick lines to anyone who asks for them without first examining and carrying out their own medical tests on the patient? I see too many on here passing judgement without having a clue how difficult it'd be for anyone to fake skeletal malformation or fake cancers etc.

[Nystagmite]

I agree with that comment. Whilst I have never had any medical tests done by my GP for sick notes, the information is on their computer; so they have drawn their own conclusions from that.

[Perseus1]

I agree with that comment. Whilst I have never had any medical tests done by my GP for sick notes, the information is on their computer; so they have drawn their own conclusions from that.

 

My Doctors (several GPs) seem to be of the mind-set that if it cannot be tested and found that is no diagnosis without evidence.

 

But the tests were different from the ATOS tests, more specific to injury.

 

I went to the musculoskeletal unit and they conducted tests like ATOS and they referred me for further treatment.

 

ATOS referred me for treatment on a different extra test though.

 

I conclude the tests done by an ATOS Doctor were not comprehensive enough and actually failed to spot an underlying illness. I expect I got the Doctor because I filled in the form comprehensively, but it still missed the mark. I have only just discovered this by proper hospital test by a specialist.

 

It does not matter to me as I would not have got the required number of points for ESA anyway.

 

So I think it was all a waste of time.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Perseus1

[tommy456]

Some GP's will issue MED3 sick notes,if a patient asks for one, without examining them ,One of the reasons why ATOS take no or very little notice of what GP's write on them unless you have got some supporting evidence you will have a 99.9% chance to score 0 at the so called medical assessment by ATOS ,The whole thing about "it's not what you can't do we want to know about it's what you can do"approach is geared up to get as many claimants off ESA and on to JSA where they can make life even harder for them, and hopefully force them into taking a part time job or a job paying the minimum wage but still pay housing benefit and working tax credits is some cases ,It's a typical tory trait manipulate the figures and make it look like we have achieved something when they have really done very little

[Invalidation]

ATOS referred me for treatment on a different extra test though..

ATOS dont have the authority to send you for anything. They are there to do a job and that is to assess you.

 

.

I conclude the tests done by an ATOS Doctor were not comprehensive enough and actually failed to spot an underlying illness. .

They are not there to spot illnesses or diagnose anything they are there simply to assess your fitness for work. Its an ASSESSMENT Not a Medical.

[Perseus1]

ATOS dont have the authority to send you for anything. They are there to do a job and that is to assess you.

 

.They are not there to spot illnesses or diagnose anything they are there simply to assess your fitness for work. Its an ASSESSMENT Not a Medical.

 

As a Doctor they are obliged to forward findings of serious injury or illness on to the NHS. I think that is their duty and the forms are already provided.

 

The tests are not comprehensive to find out a fitness for work either. They just don't work properly as I had the same tests done on the NHS by a physiotherapist and they found something ATOS didn't. NHS said it is curable (or symptoms relief) so by failing to spot it they were not doing their best for me to find work. I am unlikely to forget to put this on the form.

 

I deduced it was a complete waste of time.

[Perseus1]

They did not get it right for me. I should have got some points some I would have restricted job capacities on JSA. I am not sure if it matters all that much with the current operation of the system.

[Nystagmite]

As a Doctor they are obliged to forward findings of serious injury or illness on to the NHS. I think that is their duty and the forms are already provided.

 

No they are not. They are there to find out whether you're fit for work or not. That's all they care about.

[Perseus1]

No they are not. They are there to find out whether you're fit for work or not. That's all they care about.

 

I am not sure if Romanian Doctors swear the same oath as British medical staff.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath

 

When using foreign workers the oath they swear might be of some concern to the ethics of their job for ATOS.

 

What happened in practice was that the Doctor signed the form reporting his findings to my Medical Centre. There is a form specially for this.

 

But still gave me nil points of emergency hypertension readings 186/108. I still should have got some points from the other tests as my ability to turn a screw with my left hand is badly impeded (tried to fix my bike this morning: it should have taken 3 minutes and it it took more like 12 to 15).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physician%27s_Oath

 

Except that Doctors do not have dedicated patients any more ? ! They are just sort of locum.

[Perseus1]

I wondered why I was seen by a Doctor rather than a nurse:

 

List of conditions judged suitable for assessment by neuro trained nurses/any health care profession:

Prolapsed intervertebral disc

Lumbar nerve root compression

Sciatica

Slipped disc

Lumbar spondylosis

Lumbar spondylolisthesis

Lumbar spondylolysis

Cauda equina syndrome

Spinal stenosis

Peripheral neuropathy

Neuropathy

Drop foot

Meralgia paraesthetica

Cervical spondylosis

Cervical nerve root compression

Cervicalgia

Nerve entrapment syndrome

Carpal tunnel syndrome

Trapped nerve

Paraesthesia

Tingling

Numbness

Brachial plexus injury

Polyneuropathy

Dizziness

Vertigo

Essential Tremor

VWF

Alzheimer’s

 

List of conditions judged by the DWP and Atos Healthcare as suitable only for assessment by doctors:

Stroke

Head injury with neuro sequelae

Brain haemorrhage

Sub Arachnoid Haemorrhage

Brain tumour

Acoustic Neuroma

Multiple Sclerosis

Motor Neurone Disease

Parkinson’s disease

TIAs

Bulbar Palsy

Myasthenia Gravis

Muscular Dystrophy

Guillain-Barre Syndrome

Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis

Syringomyelia

Neurofibromatosis

Spina bifida

Polio

Fits (secondary to brain tumour)

Learning difficulties (with physical problems)

Nystagmus Myelitis

Bells Palsy

Trigeminal Neuralgia

Paraplegia

Quadriplegia

Huntington’s Chorea

Huntington’s Disease

 

https://kittysjones.wordpress.com/2013/04/18/what-you-need-to-know-about-atos-assessments/

[Zonker]

25. You must take prompt action if you think that patient safety, dignity or comfort is or may be seriously compromised.

 

 

1. a. If a patient is not receiving basic care to meet their needs, you must immediately tell someone who is in a position to act straight away.
   

From:

 

 

http://www.gmc-uk.org/guidance/good_medical_practice/respond_to_risks.asp

 

 

You could use that to argue a Dr who is bound by their professions codes if they find something that hasn't been diagnosed or treated to HAVE to act upon it.

[rds60h]

As a Doctor they are obliged to forward findings of serious injury or illness on to the NHS. I think that is their duty and the forms are already provided.

 

But that is one of the biggest problems the majority are not Doctors

"Most Atos HCPs are not doctors, they are usually nurses or occupational therapists. There are some conditions that will mean you need to be assessed by a qualified specialist nurse, or a doctor and you can ask for this." and "Also, we do not carry out ‘medical assessments’ – we carry out ‘functional assessments’."

That is at the top of the KittyJones link that you have used.

And even if they were Doctors, at ATOS they are working from a tick sheet with the objective of finding you "fit for work".

[Perseus1]

But that is one of the biggest problems the majority are not Doctors

"Most Atos HCPs are not doctors, they are usually nurses or occupational therapists. There are some conditions that will mean you need to be assessed by a qualified specialist nurse, or a doctor and you can ask for this." and "Also, we do not carry out ‘medical assessments’ – we carry out ‘functional assessments’."

That is at the top of the KittyJones link that you have used.

And even if they were Doctors, at ATOS they are working from a tick sheet with the objective of finding you "fit for work".

 

See the list above. I was seen by a Doctor as I was in the second group.

 

My tip is to make sure you are in the correct group. Make sure the sickness or fit certificates indicate.

 

They seem to be in order. I was at the top of the second group. Anywhere near the bottom of group two and I would have thought that the patients function would be very seriously impaired. I was also near the bottom of the first group but this would only limit my functions for certain jobs. I forgot to put this on the form though.

 

One of my Job Centre advisers was actually working whilst suffering from one of the disorders in the first group so I could not complain but she won't be sending for jobs on a fishing boat or lifting pallets cause she would know.

 

Mental health disorders are not included. Is there a separate list? Not that it matters to me.

 

Then there is the in between people with physical-psychological disorders. Rehabilitation, I think it is called.

 

I agree your point that functionality rather than quality of life is measured. People rehabilitating from injury can see there recovery hampered by going back to work too early.